Alcohol consumption in Ireland - are we finally ready to admit we have a problem?

[mathepac]

"Alcohol consumption in Ireland doubled between 1970 and 2003, one the largest increases in the world during that period. This increase occurred over a period when alcohol consumption was falling in most developed countries. Though consumption has fallen slightly since 2003, Irish consumption at 13.4 litres of pure alcohol per person is the second highest in the OECD."

The 11 year old report, from 2010, quoted from above shows that any recent minor reductions were from an already hugely elevated consumption rate.

"Ireland also has one of the highest levels of underage drinking in the developed world and one of the worst records for binge drinking. The increase in alcohol consumption has caused a commensurate increase in alcohol related harms in Irish society. These are comprehensively documented in Alcohol Related Harms in Ireland (Hope, 2008) which shows an alarming increase in alcohol related accidents and illnesses, alcohol related crime, alcohol related domestic abuse and alcohol related absences from work."

This is the reality. Try to balance the the books financially any way you like, but the real cost of our enormous alcohol problem in Ireland needs to be measured in human terms, something the so-called experts seem ill-equipped to do.

"Data from the Drinkaware Index (2019) found that 23% of adults (18+) never consume alcohol. While high levels of binge drinking among under-25s were reported, 23% of this age group also reported that they do not consume alcohol at all."

That is the real human extent of the problem and the "per capita" and "averaged" figures hide the problem which is what the drinks industry, producers and dispensers, pubs, clubs, off-licences and supermarkets want. Lies, damned lies and carefully massaged statistics.

Any measure which can immediately and measurably reduce our consumption of and dependence on alcohol is worthy of support and commendation. Start by enforcing the existing laws, for example remove licences from publicans who continue to serve obviously intoxicated customers. Intoxicated is an interesting word in the context of alcohol consumption, meaning poisoned.

 

[odyssey06]

Any measure which can immediately and measurably reduce our consumption of and dependence on alcohol is worthy of support and commendation. Start by enforcing the existing laws, for example remove licences from publicans who continue to serve obviously intoxicated customers. Intoxicated is an interesting word in the context of alcohol consumption, meaning poisoned.

Does that ever happen?
The current proposals for MUP are going to have zero effect on pubs and publicans are welcoming them as they see it closing the price gap between them and off sales.
Stricter enforcement of current laws is noticeably absent from the current discussions.
The narrative seems to be home drinking bad. Can't upset the publicans by doing something like enforcing existing laws.

 

[odyssey06]

"Alcohol consumption in Ireland doubled between 1970 and 2003, one the largest increases in the world during that period. This increase occurred over a period when alcohol consumption was falling in most developed countries. Though consumption has fallen slightly since 2003, Irish consumption at 13.4 litres of pure alcohol per person is the second highest in the OECD."

The 11 year old report, from 2010, quoted from above shows that any recent reductions were from an already hugely elevated consumption rate.

"Ireland also has one of the highest levels of underage drinking in the developed world and one of the worst records for binge drinking. The increase in alcohol consumption has caused a commensurate increase in alcohol related harms in Irish society. These are comprehensively documented in Alcohol Related Harms in Ireland (Hope, 2008) which shows an alarming increase in alcohol related accidents and illnesses, alcohol related crime, alcohol related domestic abuse and alcohol related absences from work."

This is the reality. Try to balance the the books financially any way you like, but the real cost of our enormous alcohol problem in Ireland needs to be measured in human terms, something the so-called experts seem ill-equipped to do.

"Data from the Drinkaware Index (2019) found that 23% of adults (18+) never consume alcohol. While high levels of binge drinking among under-25s were reported, 23% of this age group also reported that they do not consume alcohol at all."

That is the real human extent of the problem and the "per capita" and "averaged" figures hide the problem which is what the drinks industry, producers and dispensers, pubs, clubs, off-licences and supermarkets want. Lies, damned lies and carefully massaged statistics.

What % of non drinkers were there over previous decades? As discussed already on the thread, it is likely we have seen an increase in the number of drinkers during the period quoted also.
But today's standard of binge drinking, what levels were occurring over previous decades?

The general trends of alcohol consumption is going down in Ireland after a spike in the Celtic Tiger years (possibly connected to reduction in non drinkers, rise in tourism or a surge in the number of 20 somethings).
We don't need radical action on the overall levels of alcohol consumption.
We need measures targeting more specific harms.

 

[24601]

Alcohol sales were something like €7.5 billion in 2018. VAT is another €1.5 billion on top of the excise.

Moderate consumption of alcohol in all risks mortality studies indicate possible health benefits to consumption in terms of reduced heart attacks.

I'd like to see how the figures for 'alcohol related healthcare costs' were arrived at.

I actually forgot about the VAT. So between excise and VAT, the sale of alcohol more than covers the estimated associated health costs.

Any measure which can immediately and measurably reduce our consumption of and dependence on alcohol is worthy of support and commendation.

Prohibition would immediately and measurably reduce consumption. Is that worthy of support and commendation?

MUP just makes poor people poorer. Alcoholism in disadvantaged areas is as much a symptom of poverty as anything else. Increasing the price of 6 cans of Tuborg from €7 to a tenner isn't going to achieve anything of any value.

 

[mathepac]

@24601 I can't see where I advocated either of the measures you mention, thus I ask what's your point in questioning me about them?

To reenforce the point about our harmful consumption of alcohol, have a gander at these figures which are largely in line with what I've already posted. https://alcoholireland.ie/facts/how-much-do-we-drink/

We have an enormous societal problem with alcohol in Ireland which transcends all social boundaries; we need to fix the problem urgently.

 

[Purple]

MUP just makes poor people poorer. Alcoholism in disadvantaged areas is as much a symptom of poverty as anything else. Increasing the price of 6 cans of Tuborg from €7 to a tenner isn't going to achieve anything of any value.

They might have less money for the Chipper, fewer fatties... just sayin', every cloud and all that...

 

[Purple]

@24601 I can't see where I advocated either of the measures you mention, thus I ask what's your point in questioning me about them?

To reenforce the point about our harmful consumption of alcohol, have a gander at these figures which are largely in line with what I've already posted. https://alcoholireland.ie/facts/how-much-do-we-drink/

We have an enormous societal problem with alcohol in Ireland which transcends all social boundaries; we need to fix the problem urgently.

Having had first hand experience with the mental health services in this country and the appallingly shoddy way in which the medical industry seeks to criminalise addiction in young men because it's messy and they don't want the hassle (despite the best efforts of the Gardai to get them to do their job) I think that we need to do far more to address the root causes of why we have that problem.

There are hundreds of young men each year, mainly from under privileged backgrounds, who end up in prison or a wooden box because the underlying causes of their addiction are ignored. We have a epidemic of addiction in this country but it's okay because they are 'Junkies' (calling an addict a Junky is like calling a black person the N-word) and scumbags and sure they get what they deserve.

We do have a very well funded Mental Health infrastructure but it's grossly wasteful and anyway it's not for people like that.
'Professionals', god I hate that word and the elitism it stands for.

Anyway, I digress, back to slagging fat people.

 

[Leo]

MUP just makes poor people poorer.

The Scottish implementation didn't have a significant impact there. The experience might be different here but I'd be interested in why you think it would be such an issue here?

 

[mathepac]

There are hundreds of young men each year, mainly from under privileged backgrounds, who end up in prison or a wooden box because the underlying causes of their addiction are ignored.

And indeed young women and more mature people, killed by their addictions to a variety of drugs, including alcohol, prescription medications and illegal drugs as well mood-altering behaviours, bulimia, anorexia nervosa, gambling, etc.

What do believe the underlying causes of addiction are, bearing in mind that the current state of the art is that addiction is a primary illness, not the consequence or sum of other conditions?

 

[Purple]

What do believe the underlying causes of addiction are, bearing in mind that the current state of the art is that addiction is a primary illness, not the consequence or sum of other conditions?

Talk to any Gardai in a socially disadvantaged area and they will tell you that mental illness in young men is ignored, often wilfully, by the mental health services because they don't want to deal with it. One Garda said to me that he could pick out the kids at 13 or 14 who would be dead by suicide or in prison by 20. He said that they try to get young men sectioned under the mental health act as they know them and know that they are struggling to cope with depression or psychosis but even if the doctor who sees the young man in the police station sections him the consultant in the hospital the next day will overturn it and have them released, to be arrested and end up in prison and out of the way. He was angry and frustrated having seen the same cycle over the last 20 years. He said that the medical sector places no value on the lives of angry and often violent young men with the wrong accent. I've spoken to a number of Gardai in different stations and they all have the same experience.

 

[Leo]

the consultant in the hospital the next day will overturn it and have them released,

They even try to refuse those sent via court order!

 

[24601]

The Scottish implementation didn't have a significant impact there. The experience might be different here but I'd be interested in why you think it would be such an issue here?

Well there's a difference in the level (50ppu vs. €0.80ppu here), although that isn't major, but the Scottish data isn't all that clear. It seems quite obvious to me that it will have an impact. Assume I'm on minimum wage working 39 hours a week, my net pay per annum is €19,015. Assume I drink 6 cans of Dutch Gold every Saturday night, I'm currently spending €364 (€7*52) on cans as a moderate, low income drinker. Under the new MUP I will spend €499.20 (€9.60*52), representing an extra €135.20 that will go to Tesco/Lidl/Aldi, 0.7% of my entire net income. Obviously, I might just stop drinking or buy 4 cans instead of 6, which will be seen as a win for public health, but is it really? What "harm" is this addressing? Low income, heavy drinkers are unlikely to just go cold-turkey, they're more likely to substitute with other substances or get it through some other means, so whilst we will probably see a reduction in overall consumption, I'm not sure MUP is really going to materially benefit society.

 

[Purple]

They even try to refuse those sent via court order!

And that's in a hospital with the facilities to handle violent patients. They are even more egger to get them out the door in a place like St. James's.

 

[Leo]

Obviously, I might just stop drinking or buy 4 cans instead of 6, which will be seen as a win for public health, but is it really? What "harm" is this addressing? Low income, heavy drinkers are unlikely to just go cold-turkey, they're more likely to substitute with other substances or get it through some other means, so whilst we will probably see a reduction in overall consumption, I'm not sure MUP is really going to materially benefit society.

The Scottish data showed little impact on or change in behaviours of low consumers, the affects were most pronounced in the heaviest drinking households.

 

[24601]

The Scottish data showed little impact on or change in behaviours of low consumers, the affects were most pronounced in the heaviest drinking households.

That's not what the data showed even though that is how it was reported. They didn't make a determination in that respect because the design of the study didn't allow for it:

Another limitation of our study concerns our findings relating to the differential impact of MUP by income group, and by level of consumption. Although we identified a greater increase in the weekly price per gram of alcohol purchased for lower income groups, and a correspondingly larger decrease in the grams of alcohol purchased per week, we had no information on the actual drinking levels of panel respondents. When considering the equity implications of MUP, it is important to be able to separate heavier rather than lighter drinkers living in poverty.

 

[Leo]

That's not what the data showed even though that is how it was reported. They didn't make a determination in that respect because the design of the study didn't allow for it:

True, the data they used was based on purchasing rather than consumption. But I'm guessing these households weren't compensating for the drop in purchases by obtaining free alcohol elsewhere.

 

[mathepac]

Data published by drinkaware indicate that alcohol consumption is on the increase and using WHO numbers, predicts an increase by 2025 to 13.9 per capita, an increase of 13% over the 2010 figure. We have an increasing problem with increasing alcohol consumption.

A narrative review of alcohol consumption as a risk factor for global burden of disease - PubMed

Since the original Comparative Risk Assessment (CRA) for alcohol consumption as part of the Global Burden of Disease Study for 1990, there had been regular updates of CRAs for alcohol from the World Health Organization and/or the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation. These studies have...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The WHO predicts that total per capita (15+) consumption will reach 13.5 litres in 2020 and 13.9 litres in 2025 in Ireland. In 2010, this same figure was 12.3 litres."

 

[odyssey06]

Data published by drinkaware indicate that alcohol consumption is on the increase and using WHO numbers predicts an increase by 2025 to 13.9 per capita, an increase of 13% over the 2010 figure. We have an increasing problem with increasing alcohol consumption.

A narrative review of alcohol consumption as a risk factor for global burden of disease - PubMed

Since the original Comparative Risk Assessment (CRA) for alcohol consumption as part of the Global Burden of Disease Study for 1990, there had been regular updates of CRAs for alcohol from the World Health Organization and/or the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation. These studies have...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The WHO predicts that total per capita (15+) consumption will reach 13.5 litres in 2020 and 13.9 litres in 2025 in Ireland. In 2010, this same figure was 12.3 litres."

Nothing you have linked there has anything to do with Ireland.
Their prediction, if they even made such a claim, for 2020 is already in the bin.

 

[mathepac]

The quotation from the report is about alcohol consumption in Ireland, Ireland is named in it. It's not about Scotland or alcohol sales. The difficulty is with the incorrect link I supplied, which is corrected below.

How is a prediction for 2025 in the bin by 2020? 2025 hasn't arrived yet, check your calendar!

 

[mathepac]

I've spoken to a number of Gardai in different stations and they all have the same experience.

I can't respond to your post @Purple as I'll face a charge of medicalising the discussion. The thread is about the muti-facted problem substance use disorder in Ireland, alcohol being the substance here. It seems strange to have a topic about alcohol consumption problems and not to be allowed by the forum rules to discuss the medical aspects of an enormous problem. Them's the rules though.

As much as anything else it is a medical/psychiatric/mental health/psychological problem but as you pointed out, the mental health services agree they have little or nothing useful to offer sufferers, and as reported by your contacts. discharging people admitted to acute units at the earliest opportunity.