Alan Shatter's campaign to abolish Inheritance Tax

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Doesn't the median Irish field get sold every 300-400 years or so?

Most Irish family businesses are never sold either. They either are taken on by a family member or just close down.

So what is the problem then?

If you defer the liability until the business or farm is sold, that deals with your objection.

But if someone inherits a farm and sells it 6 years later or 60 years later or 600 years later, they pay the CAT due.

I think that most businesses could pay the CAT, but if it would make you happy, I would agree to defer that as well.

Brendan
 
Even if capital tax receipts doubled, they'd amount to little more than a rounding error in exchequer receipts.

Is it really worth destroying family farm and business livelihoods for that?
Not just family farms but communities where people live…the price of land bears no relation in what it can produce economically…farmers purchase land in the context of 30/40 years time frame …not to flip an asset after 5/10 years
 
So what is the problem then?
The most obvious problem is that the successor farmer or business person doesn't properly own the business assets if there is a permanent mortgage on them, so for example banks won't accept them as collateral, and any sale of say a site for whatever reason is going to be fraught with difficulty.

As I said above, it would be more honest if the State instead abolished the concept of private property and unilaterally confiscated all assets. Talk of 600-year charges on property frankly remind me of serfdom.

It's surreal that we're even discussing this. But then again, we're in a country where 15 years a similarly idealistic argument for equality prompted a well-meaning but ill Finance Minister to actively punish landlords and housebuilders, thus unleashing a housing crisis which has since morphed into a full-blown housing disaster.
 
There is nothing idealistic about arguing for the reduction of inequality by asking people who inherit very valuable assets, who subsequently sell them, to pay the same taxes as everyone else who inherits wealth.

Brendan
 
That is really a question of public policy where we would differ.

I think passing on wealth free of taxes is simply not fair when marginal income is taxed at 52%.

People inheriting businesses worth millions of euro should be paying CAT.
People inheriting farms worth millions of euro should be paying CAT if they sell those farms.

Brendan
Fair enough, I think we do disagree. I think that if I make some incremental effort to earn an extra €100k, and I’m left with only €48k, I should be free to gift that money to my kids, or indeed to you, and it should be nobody’s business. Tax paid cash in my back pocket should be mine to do whatever I want with.

As an aside, it’s a joke that the State keeps the majority of someone’s incremental earnings. The highest rate of total income tax should be no more than 49%.
 
I think that if I make some incremental effort to earn an extra €100k, and I’m left with only €48k, I should be free to gift that money to my kids, or indeed to you, and it should be nobody’s business. Tax paid cash in my back pocket should be mine to do whatever I want with.
Would it not be better if you paid 30% of that extra €100k in tax and whomever you gave it to also paid 30%?
 
I think that if I make some incremental effort to earn an extra €100k, and I’m left with only €48k, I should be free to gift that money to my kids, or indeed to you, and it should be nobody’s business.

Not too many people make millions out of incremental effort.

A lot of the wealth which is passed on is through increases in asset prices.

Anyway, I don't buy this double taxation argument. I pay 52% on my marginal income. Then when I buy a pint, it's taxed again at probably about 70% of the price of the pint.
 
A 6 euro pint of 4.2% beer has about 1.12 VAT and 54c excise = 1.66 tax, or 27.6% of the price, but I get your point.
 
Not too many people make millions out of incremental effort.

A lot of the wealth which is passed on is through increases in asset prices.

Anyway, I don't buy this double taxation argument. I pay 52% on my marginal income. Then when I buy a pint, it's taxed again at probably about 70% of the price of the pint.
I do buy the double taxation argument but I apply it to everything. I don't understand why people don't have a problem with a marginal tax rate of over 50% but do have a problem with inheritance tax.
 
Not too many people make millions out of incremental effort.

A lot of the wealth which is passed on is through increases in asset prices.

Anyway, I don't buy this double taxation argument. I pay 52% on my marginal income. Then when I buy a pint, it's taxed again at probably about 70% of the price of the pint.
You choose to buy a pint, from a business person trading to make a taxable profit.

Say you were down on your luck, had a mortgage, and couldn’t pay it. There are €35,000 of arrears. You’re facing repossession and/or eviction and homelessness. I should be able to pay that, no questions asked.

Similarly with all this notional rent rubbish when someone is put up in a house.

Or debates about weddings vs wedding gifts.

It’s all nonsensical and yields hardly anything in the grand scheme of things.
 
A 6 euro pint of 4.2% beer has about 1.12 VAT and 54c excise = 1.66 tax, or 27.6% of the price, but I get your point.
So I have to earn an additional €12 to buy a €4.34 pint of beer. The State takes the rest in taxes.
 
Say you were down on your luck, had a mortgage, and couldn’t pay it. There are €35,000 of arrears. You’re facing repossession and/or eviction and homelessness. I should be able to pay that, no questions asked.
You can give it as a loan and forgive the interest each year as a gift worth less than €3000.

I'd prefer if the householder was paying far less income tax, could save, and could not end up in arrears. That's a better option in my mind.
Anyway, the State would just buy the house using your taxes and give it to him as a council house.
 
I don't understand why people don't have a problem with a marginal tax rate of over 50% but do have a problem with inheritance tax.

@Purple

I agree with you that we should pay both.
However the amounts raised in capital taxes even with my suggestions would not bring down the Income Tax rates very much.
 
@Purple

I agree with you that we should pay both.
However the amounts raised in capital taxes even with my suggestions would not bring down the Income Tax rates very much.
We have to decide what sort of society we want and construct our taxation system in a way that funds it but also does the social engineering that only taxation can do. We currently have a system with very high social transfers, very high marginal tax rates on work and very low taxes on wealth. I think that's utterly screwed up.

A young person looking for a home now has three options.

  • The most favourable one is inherit enough money to buy one.
  • The second most favourable is get a council house from the State or have your rent paid by the State.
  • The least favourable one, by far, is acquire skills, work hard, earn a good income and save enough of your after tax income to get a deposit together and get a mortgage to buy a house.
We should construct our taxation system to make the third option the most favourable. If that means increasing property tax to keep prices low (like in France and America) or increasing CAT or cutting spending on health and social welfare or having wealth taxes (wealth, not income) to leave more money in the pockets of working people then that's fine by me.
 
We have to decide what sort of society we want and construct our taxation system in a way that funds it but also does the social engineering that only taxation can do. We currently have a system with very high social transfers, very high marginal tax rates on work and very low taxes on wealth. I think that's utterly screwed up.

A young person looking for a home now has three options.

  • The most favourable one is inherit enough money to buy one.
  • The second most favourable is get a council house from the State or have your rent paid by the State.
  • The least favourable one, by far, is acquire skills, work hard, earn a good income and save enough of your after tax income to get a deposit together and get a mortgage to buy a house.
We should construct our taxation system to make the third option the most favourable. If that means increasing property tax to keep prices low (like in France and America) or increasing CAT or cutting spending on health and social welfare or having wealth taxes (wealth, not income) to leave more money in the pockets of working people then that's fine by me.
would a wealth tax where accumulation of "a good income" after a substantial portion is taken in tax already is taxed again not discourage one from bothering to "acquire skills [and] work hard"?
 
would a wealth tax where accumulation of "a good income" after a substantial portion is taken in tax already is taxed again not discourage one from bothering to "acquire skills [and] work hard"?
The wealth tax would also tax inheritances and other unearned wealth. The point is that you'd retain more of what you earned so you could decide to save it or spend it or whatever and if you have and invested it you'd have more of your income to save and invest so the pot you ended up with would be bigger.
 
The wealth tax would also tax inheritances and other unearned wealth. The point is that you'd retain more of what you earned so you could decide to save it or spend it or whatever and if you have and invested it you'd have more of your income to save and invest so the pot you ended up with would be bigger.
"would also" but it will still tax savings. Then there is the remarkably penal taxation on investments with 41% exit tax and deemed disposal means the tax take on savings is quite substantial as it is.
 
"would also" but it will still tax savings. Then there is the remarkably penal taxation on the investments with 41% exit tax and deemed disposal means the tax take on savings is quite substantial as it is.
Yea, that should be looked at but if income taxes are lower working people have more agency over their own money. I'll be more careful about how I spend my money than the State will so I'd rather spend it myself instead of the State taking it and spending it on me. I always think Children's allowance is a great example; the State takes €200 a month from you in taxes and gives it back to you less their handling fee. I'd rather that they didn't take it in the first place. That's just an example, not a rabbit hole.
 
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