AIB Gift Letter and Deed of Confirmation

[T McGibney]

A fair question. The solicitor seems to be insisting on something (the Deed of Confirmation) that is in all likelihood unnecessary, and it seems probable that MandyD will miss out on a lower interest rate as a result.

You cant definitively state that it is unnecessary though. The opening post above confirms exactly why the solicitor has requested it, and the reason given appears to be perfectly valid. The OP has already produced a 3-year old version of the letter which sounds like an implicit acknowledgement on their part that it's essential. But a 3 year old declaration is clearly of poor evidential value.

But perhaps the solicitor is perfectly entitled to do so, in which case there are no grounds for a complaint.

You should have noted this when you suggested to the OP that she should make a complaint.

On the other hand, MandyD provided strong evidence to the solicitor that AIB do not require a Deed of Confirmation and the solicitor has ignored that.

Again please read the opening post. It's the solicitor, not the bank, who requires the deed, and she has explained why she needs it.

Do her actions amount to an unreasonable delay?

The delay is on the part of the OP and their parents, not the solicitor.

That is indeed the main difficulty: a power imbalance. It's never easy to know what to do in such situations.

There is no power imbalance. There is an applicant whose mortgage may be slightly more expensive if rates go up in the meantime, and a solicitor who stands to be sued by the bank in the event of a default if they have relied on a 3-year old declaration in the course of certifying title. Whatever about a power imbalance, there certainly is an imbalance in the liabilities to be faced if things go wrong.

 

[MandyD]

You say @T McGibney that it was my fault.

My solicitor has been in receipt of the gift letter since November last year. She was also aware that the deadline for submission of all the documents was 3 days before 16th January, to allow for the documents to be filed and assessed in time. It was her job to review the documents, give me advice and, if she needed to clarify further with the bank for her own satisfaction, do it all in good time. I disagree with you – this was not my fault, nor my parents fault.

You say @T McGibney that there is no power imbalance.

The way our solicitor talked to us at the meeting made me feel that if something I say upsets her, she would be well capable of refusing to continue working for us. This would mean that we wouldn’t be able to buy the house we really want. So we have signed the contract we have not read in full, which was not explained to us, and some of the questions – for example about who is responsible for boundaries and if there are wayleaves or rights of way – were answered in such dismissive and confusing manner, that in fact they were not answered. And I did not have the courage to clarify or ask any other questions. Are you sure this is not power imbalance?

 

[T McGibney]

You say @T McGibney that it was my fault.

No I didn't.

You say @T McGibney that there is no power imbalance.

There is no power imbalance. You are a customer of this person, not their victim.

 

[Paul F]

You cant definitively state that it is unnecessary though.

That is true.

The opening post above confirms exactly why the solicitor has requested it, and the reason given appears to be perfectly valid. The OP has already produced a 3-year old version of the letter which sounds like an implicit acknowledgement on their part that it's essential. But a 3 year old declaration is clearly of poor evidential value.

We met the solicitor yesterday. She doesn't believe what bank says in their email, she requested official confirmation that they don't need the deed. Bank sent more emails yesterday - said that if they didn't ask for it in the letter of offer, than they don't need it.

What is essential from the bank's point of view is a Gift Letter. The bank does not require a Deed of Confirmation and has said so in an email to the solicitor, but for some reason the email does not suffice for the solicitor.

For me it boils down to the following: Is it appropriate for a solicitor to require a Deed of Confirmation when the bank does not require it? Do other solicitors ever do this, or is this solicitor a complete outlier? And why did she wait until this week to ask for a deed when she knew about the gift letter ages ago?

There is an applicant whose mortgage may be slightly more expensive if rates go up in the meantime

If we assume a €300k mortgage, the delay caused by this requirement will end up costing MandyD an extra €7,000 or so over the next five years – hardly "slightly" more expensive.

There is no power imbalance. There is an applicant whose mortgage may be slightly more expensive if rates go up in the meantime, and a solicitor who stands to be sued by the bank in the event of a default if they have relied on a 3-year old declaration in the course of certifying title. Whatever about a power imbalance, there certainly is an imbalance in the liabilities to be faced if things go wrong.

Of course there is a power imbalance. There is a liability imbalance too but that does not mean there isn't a power imbalance – MandyD's words make that clear:

I was stunned at the meeting. As a professional myself I wouldn't dream of treating my clients, nor anyone else, in such an aggresive, disrespectful, and belittling manner - I was lost for words.

The way our solicitor talked to us at the meeting made me feel that if something I say upsets her, she would be well capable of refusing to continue working for us. This would mean that we wouldn’t be able to buy the house we really want. So we have signed the contract we have not read in full, which was not explained to us, and some of the questions – for example about who is responsible for boundaries and if there are wayleaves or rights of way – were answered in such dismissive and confusing manner, that in fact they were not answered. And I did not have the courage to clarify or ask any other questions.

 

[MandyD]

For me it boils down to the following: Is it appropriate for a solicitor to require a Deed of Confirmation when the bank does not require it? Do other solicitors ever do this, or is this solicitor a complete outlier?

I would ask same questions as @Paul F - and will be grateful for advice and opinions.

Our solicitor has included an additional charge for the Deed in her invoice so I am worried she would insist on it now. We have paid already.

 

[T McGibney]

What is essential from the bank's point of view is a Gift Letter. The bank does not require a Deed of Confirmation and has said so in an email to the solicitor, but for some reason the email does not suffice for the solicitor.

For me it boils down to the following: Is it appropriate for a solicitor to require a Deed of Confirmation when the bank does not require it?

Again you've missed the point.

1. The bank need the solicitor to confirm title.

2. The solicitor needs the OPs parents to complete the Deed of Confirmation to support their confirmation.

3. The OP has already produced a 3 year old document, which unsurprisingly isn't sufficient.

4. None of this is even complicated. The complication is that the OPs parents live abroad and arranging the signing of the the deed is obviously a pain.

5. That isn't the solicitor's fault.

The OP stands to lose €7,500. The solicitor stands to lose potentially the amount of the mortgage, the bank's costs, and possibly their livelihood if they negligently issue an incorrect confirmation of title and things later go badly wrong.

There is no basis to suggest that the solicitor has been negligent. The opposite appears to be the case.

We are about to sign the contract and are after receiving an email from our solicitor that she needs my parents to sign a Deed of Confirmation for her to confirm to the bank that the title to the property is 100% in order.

Just wondering if this is a standard practice? Is the Gift Letter signed by my parents almost 3 years ago not sufficient?

I don't mind the additional expense, it is just that my parents don't live in Ireland and don't speak English.

 

[MandyD]

2. The solicitor needs the OPs parents to complete the Deed of Confirmation to support their confirmation.

Why? We have proof that all mortgage deposit money comes from our own sources and that we did not have to use any of the gift money. The gift letter is a legacy document on the bank's file, relevant several years ago but not now. The solicitor is aware of this. The bank as well.

My parents, even if they wanted, will have no claim as all the money used for the mortgage deposit is ours.

Bank doesn't want the Deed. So is it appropriate for a solicitor to require this Deed at all in this situation?

 

[MandyD]

There is no basis to suggest that the solicitor has been negligent.

I haven't suggesed this.

 

[T McGibney]

I haven't suggested this.

It was @Paul F who suggested it.

 

[Paul F]

There is no basis to suggest that the solicitor has been negligent. The opposite appears to be the case.

I haven't suggesed this.

It was @Paul F who suggested it.

What I said was:

I wonder if others here think there is any point in reporting her to the Law Society (after you have got your mortgage)?

and

Do her actions amount to an unreasonable delay?

At no point did I suggest that the solicitor was negligent.

 

[T McGibney]

At no point did I suggest that the solicitor was negligent.

Why would you raise the point of reporting her to the Law Society if you didn't think she was negligent?

 

[MandyD]

Why would you raise the point of reporting her to the Law Society if you didn't think she was negligent?

I don't think it's the same. Complaints can be made on different grounds.

 

[T McGibney]

I don't think it's the same. Complaints can be made on different grounds.

All boil down in some shape or form to negligence.

 

[MandyD]

What is your definition of solicitor's negligence @T McGibney ?

 

[T McGibney]

What is your definition of solicitor's negligence @T McGibney ?

The dictionary definition is well known and uncomplicated. You can look it up as easily as I can.

 

[MandyD]

The dictionary definition is well known and uncomplicated. You can look it up as easily as I can.

I did. This is why I've asked. I've also looked up type of complaints people can make.

Based on what my search brought up, I don't think that making a complaint is the same as thinking that the solicitor was negligent.

 

[T McGibney]

I did. This is why I've asked. I've also looked up type of complaints people can make.

Based on what my search brought up, I don't think that making a complaint is the same as thinking that the solicitor was negligent.

Okay, fire ahead and make your complaint.

But if your complaint is that your solicitor was too diligent and careful to rely on a 3-year old document in her certification of your title, I reckon you'll be merely wasting your own time.

 

[MandyD]

@T McGibney - as I said before, I have no intention of making any complaints.
For some reason you seem to be making it personal. Can you please stop.

 

[T McGibney]

For some reason you seem to be making it personal. Can you please stop.

If I am, my apologies. It's certainly not my intention. I hope this works out ok for you.

 

[MandyD]

I deeply regret coming here and asking for advice. Biggest mistake ever. Just got an email from the bank that my solicitor has posted an additional letter to them. I'm trying to find out what it is about. The drawdown is delayed.

If my solicitor is here and has recognised this case - please do not destroy our chances of buying this house!! I made sure you cannot be identified here. You insist on the Deed - you will get it. We will not complain to anyone.