AIB Aib ex staff - getting €1,650 compensation

Andy836

Frequent Poster
Messages
370
Bump

Anyone have any thoughts on this. A family member contacted me last night and appears to be in the same boat as Selvin above (and a raft of other people).
They moved jobs to AIB and moved their mortgage to the staff mortgage in 2006.
As such they're loan was split between a portion on a tracker / and a portion on the "staff preferential rate". This "staff rate" had the same clause as Slevin listed above (from their memory - they've to dig out their docs yet).
When they removed the Preferential rate they were contacted and advised SVR or Fixed were only options. They specifically remember being told that the tracker option was no longer an option.

This issue would appear to fall into the AIB's wider stance re the "Prevailing Rate" of ECB + 3.67% (AIB reiterated this to the Finance Committee in Sept 27, 2017 - link at end).

I've a couple of problems with this:
- Family member was not offered this tracker + margin in Jan '09.
- The simplest argument is the prevailing rate should be the rate applied to the closest loan matching this loan - which of course would be the other part of their mortgage (the tracker part which is ECB+1.1%) i.e. same Borrower, same security, same credit history
- The wording is vague, and the attitude that seems to be gaining traction is that where wording is vague the Bank's should come down on the side of the Borrower/Consumer.

At the Finance Committee Bernard Byrne sought to justify the ECB+3.67% "prevailing rate" based on the disconnection between the Bank's funding costs & the ECB rate.
I'm not sure I fully agree with this argument.
The Bank's cost of funds is a separate issue to the "prevailing rates appropriate to the Mortgage Loan" i.e. the wording highlighted references "the Mortgage Loan", not a "Mortgage Loan Pool".
In this case the specific Mortgage Loan was - (i) performing, (ii) aged [as in the loan had been in existence for over 5 years], (iii) low initial Loan to Value (<80%) [what the LTV at the time was is a different question].

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this (i presume there's a huge number of AIB staff affected). My cousin is going to get her docs together and get all her ducks in a row.

https://beta.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_and_reform_and_taoiseach/2017-09-26/2/
Update, family member received a check from AIB for approx €1600 split €1000 compensation plus €600 for professional fees.

They quoted an indicative "prevailing tracker rate" of approx 8% at the time she came off her staff rate. Now they're offering an ECB plus approx 3.2%.

This came out of the blue. She had submitted no correspondence on this issue to AIB.

I haven't seen the letter she received yet so the above figures may be off slightly.

If nothing else, it suggests they are looking at former staff mortgages.
 

Sunshine39

Registered User
Messages
15
Hi there
See some posts re AIB staff mortgages.....does anyone know if AIB changed the contracts they used at some point between 2005 and 2006/2007. Mine was taken out in 2005 and doesn’t seem to have wording in it to the effect that the mortgage could be put on tracker at the end of any fixed rate although I know of others who’s contracts do say this but were possibly taken out later. Needless to say I’m not getting much info from the bank! Thank you
 

Scruffy1

Registered User
Messages
12
Brendan
I'm in a similar position. As AIB staff, I received a split mortgage in 2008 without specifying with approx. 40% on tracker and remainder on staff rate (PDH fixed at 3%). On resigning from the bank the fixed rate was auto switched to a variable. The conversion to variable was stipulated in the original staff letter of offer however it does not form part of the mortgage contract (i.e. 3c clause).
I raised the complaint with AIB which they rejected - their response was in line with most others. I have since raised with the Ombudsman who requested AIB to redress – the Ombudsman noted AIB said the tracker investigation was on-going so complaint was not closed – even though AIB previously said it was. I am part of 3.69% group but did not receive he €1,500 compensation. Do I have a valid case to raise again with AIB/Ombudsman once the review has ended ?
 

Patient fella

New Member
Messages
5
I'm ex AIB staff too.
I did receive the compensation from AIB for both a staff loan and a fixed loan( I have a tracker too on the same home so a big mortgage )
The intention of the 3 loans in oct 2007on the same property was to achieve overall best rate initially with a move to tracker when fixed element matured.
I requested copy of my file. Recently received it but it does not contain anything related to loan approved in 2007. Am I entitled to see AIB internal notes on loan approved.?
PF
 

Scruffy1

Registered User
Messages
12
I received a response from the Ombudsman but it was a typical, AIB have not finished their review yet fob off. I have since made a follow on complaint to AIB as they did not address the 3.2 clause issue. They stated the staff mortgage was considered a Variable rate is it was titled 'Variable Annuity' and subject to BIK however on the special conditions of the staff rate mortgage contract they clearly state that this is a fixed interest term account and references 3.3 accordingly. It also mentions in the Special Conditions that resignation defaults these accounts to Standard variable however there is ambiguity between the special conditions on the main contract.

Just wondering has anybody else pursued this successfully ?
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
40,649
Guys, I have counted 14 separate posters to this thread with the same issue.

I see that Padraic Kissane has raised it as well.

You should get together and compare notes.

And maybe as a group deal with Padraic Kissane.

And what about your trade union? They should co-ordinate the response.

Do any of you have shares in AIB? If so, you should consider going to the AIB AGM and raising the issue there.

Brendan
 

Neady1

New Member
Messages
1
I am also ex AIB staff, and unfortunately I went to the Ombudsman back in 2014 who partially ruled in my favor however since then so much more information has come to light. The ombudsman at the time did not allow my staff rate back on the tracker. However I am not giving up. I believe I was treated unfairly as a customer because i was staff. I strongly believe if I was not staff I would be on the tracker. See some of my notes below might help one of you. Also I rang the ombudsman yesterday and they said I could log another complaint once it was not the same as my orginal one. I have been discriminated because i was staff.



1. While my initial drawdown rate was staff preferential rate my legally binding contract with AIB clearly included details of the tracker option following expiry of fixed products.

3. Following drawdown on my initial mortgage, statement from AIB on account titled “TRACKER MORTGAGE” (note this was in considerably larger font and in bold) I automatically presumed I was on the tracker mortgage.

4. In 2008, in the AIB issued a press release (and internal staff circular) which referenced the removal of tracker product this statement clearly stated that the removal related only to “new mortgage applicant” I was existing mortgage holder so this did not apply to me.

5. As my terms and conditions clearly referenced the tracker option and noting, in the absence of any press release stating that existing customers tracker option on their terms and conditions would be removed. I understood that I continued to have the right to take up my tracker mortgage

6. In January 2009, the Bank advised all staff preferential rate holders that they would be moved to the standard variable rate at this was lower than the staff preferential rate.

7. On expiry of this 2 year fixed rate in March 2012, I sought to have the tracker applied to these accounts in line with the terms of my letter of offer (sectoin 3.2) The tracker had become the most beneficial rate. see my terms and conditions below part C)

Section 3.2

3.2 FUTHER FIXED INTEREST RATE OPTIONS/CHOICE

At the end of any fixed interest rate period, the Customer may choose between:

A) A further fixed interest rate period , or

B) conversion to a variable interest rate mortgage loan

C)conversion to a tracker interest rate mortgage loan

at the bank then prevailing rates appropriate to the mortgage loan

Also I was given no advice on my mortgage pre, post drawdown. My calls were not recorded. etc etc

Dont give up , keep fighting.
 

Cbtrack

New Member
Messages
4
Hi all,
I am also in the same position as many of you seem to be here.
Took out staff mortgage in 2007.mortgage was split :
180k staff rate and remainder on tracker, as seemed to be the standard at the time.
My contract has the condition 3.2 referred to earlier which states that we were entitled to revert to tracker/variable/fixed at the end of a fixed period, however, the bank are now saying that the staff rate was not a fixed rate???
My mortgage was on a staff rate up until the end of last year when I switched to variable as it was more beneficial.at this stage I sighted my terms & conditions which contained the clause re: tracker option. When I queried this, I was offere the tracker at the ‘prevailing rate’ of 3.67% which I obviously declined.
When I raised a complaint in relation to why we were not offered a tracker previously during the bulk switch of 2009, they did a full review and I got the response that the staff rate was not a fixed rate.
This position is quite unbelievable. If the staff rate was not a fixed rate,why then did they include the terms & conditions of a fixed loan? The response from the bank has stated that it’s a final one. Just wondering if anyone has gone to pauric kissane with this issue as I can’t actually believe that they are denying this was a fixed rate mortgage and using this as an ‘out’ for staff. I wonder if normal customers who had this clause in their mortgage have been returned to trackers. It would seem on the face of it that staff are being treated much less favourably than other customers
 

Track2019

Registered User
Messages
15
Hi all,
My husband and I are in the same position. We were originally on a tracker mortgage and in 2007 we enquired about fixing the rate due to rising rates. We were advised to request the staff pref loan fixed rate as it was available to staff members, so we did same.
The homeflex application form for the staff pref rate clearly refers to the pref rate loan as a FIXED loan and as others have mentioned, the terms and conditions of the contract refer to it as a fixed loan. Yet the bank are refusing to accept our complaint and are claiming the staff pref loan is a variable annuity rate. The t&C's of the contract and clause 3.2 along with with the homeflex application form clearly contradict this. I agree with you cbtrack, if my husband wasnt an aib staff member at the time we requested to fix the rate on our mortgage we would have most likely been included in the review and our tracker rate would have been restored. I haven't heard if the union are getting involved in this or advising their members on this matter.
 
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Cbtrack

New Member
Messages
4
@Brendan, I hadn’t heard to date of the union getting involved in this issue at all but might be worth raising with them.
@ Track2019 - what stage is your complaint at? Did they send you a final response? We got a final response the same to say it was not actually a fixed rate. I didn’t even bother to reply to raise all of the issues re: the ts & cs contradicting this etc as I assume this is a position they are taking with all staff.
I couldn’t actually get my hands on the original application form. Did u manage to get a copy where it clearly states ‘fixed rate’ in it?
Next stop is either financial advisor or ombudsman. Just wondering if there would be many of us in this situation.
 

Scruffy1

Registered User
Messages
12
Likewise, my complaint response denied that the Staff preferential PDH account was a fixed rate as it was titled 'Variable Annuity' (and bizarrely as it was subject to BIK) even though they mention the rate was static for term of the loan, this also was a final response. The special conditions specifically refer to it as a fixed rate though
 

Cbtrack

New Member
Messages
4
This must be the standard position they are taking with all staff /ex staff then that this wasn’t a fixed loan. It’s shocking really when the documentation clearly states otherwise.
@Scruffy1 did u get anywhere with a complaint to the ombudsman? Just trying to decide what my next step should be as clearly the bank are sending the same response to all staff hoping we will go away. It’s just plain worng and it’s there in black & white in the terms & conditions
 

Track2019

Registered User
Messages
15
We got the same final response letter and are now considering our options. The preferential rate is referred to as a fixed rate in so many documents yet it's unbelievable that the bank are denying same. A link to the homeflex app form is attached on page 2 of this forum.
 

Cbtrack

New Member
Messages
4
By the way, does anyone even know what the hell a ‘variable annuity’ is supposed to be? Having googled it there doesn’t seem to be any link to a mortgage type product at all that I can find. Am I right in saying that as staff we believed at the time that we were taking out a fixed rate mortgage product? Were we then midsold this ‘variable annuity’ under the guise that it was a ‘fixed rate staff mortgage’? I don’t ever remember having a ‘variable annuity’ explained to me prior to signing contracts
 

Scruffy1

Registered User
Messages
12
My initial request to the ombudsman was that I was not considered part of the 3.2 clause. They requested AIB's response to which they were said tracker review was ongoing even though both complaints listed this as AIB's final response. I had since launched a separate complaint on the why 3.2 was not in play which was responded by the Variable Annuity cop out.

From memory I think Padraic Kissane's view on this is staff should have been offered the more favourable tracker account once the variable rate increased above 3%, not that fixed accounts should have defaulted to the tracker option. I'm sure there are test cases still going through the mill but it looks as if AIB are militantly defending their position on staff/ex staff. I'm guessing this cohort would have much more sizable and multiples of loans than the general public
 

Emmalouf

New Member
Messages
5
Just wondered if any of the fso cases have been responded to. On my application form I ticked for a tracker mortgage but was put on the 3% staff and the remainder on tracker. I know I signed the documents but I think that as I ticked for tracker I should have been given this
 

Mildred

New Member
Messages
3
As AIB staff I also have an appeal in with the ombudsman. My mortgage was taken out in 2006 on staff rate with the remainder on commercial rate. In 2007 I applied for all my accounts to be transferred to Tracker rate. However the account on staff rate was not amended, though I had requested for all the accounts to be amended to Tracker. Apart from this, can anyone tell me did the 3.2 condition apply to all staff mortgages in 2006?
 

emilybee

Registered User
Messages
10
I received a response from the Ombudsman but it was a typical, AIB have not finished their review yet fob off. I have since made a follow on complaint to AIB as they did not address the 3.2 clause issue. They stated the staff mortgage was considered a Variable rate is it was titled 'Variable Annuity' and subject to BIK however on the special conditions of the staff rate mortgage contract they clearly state that this is a fixed interest term account and references 3.3 accordingly. It also mentions in the Special Conditions that resignation defaults these accounts to Standard variable however there is ambiguity between the special conditions on the main contract.

Just wondering has anybody else pursued this successfully ?
Hi ,
Given what has come to light today re Tracker Mortgages, I am wondering did you ever get to a conclusion on your case..
All the points you have made are exactly the same as what I am highlighting also....
 
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