Act of Union partially repealed

[Purple]

Purple, with respect, in case you hadn't noticed, it was the fact that they were running this country in its entirety that kind of led to alot of Troubles throughout the last century.
Now I accept that the partitionist mindset is a legitimate one. I have stated that if the two state solution could work, then so be it. But I am persuaded, given the evidence of the last 100yrs, that it has not worked and that ideally the Proclaimation of 1916, an All Ireland Republic is the way forward.
Failing that, a reversion to the time an All Ireland was established through exclusively democratic and peaceful means would suffice.

I'm against a united Ireland that falls short of the 6 counties joining this country. I don't want the British monarch as our head of state or on our money. I don't want to leave the EU. I don't want to join the British Commonwealth. I don't want bombs going off in Dublin and Monaghan again. I don't want any more bigots and god-botherer's in our Parliament.

I never said they weren't. But the conflict is over.

Yes, but the IRA are still smuggling cigarettes and laundering Diesel and licencing drug dealers and running protection rackets. They haven't gone away you know. So now, at best, Sinn Fein are the political front of an organised crime gang.

A peace deal has been signed that was resoundingly backed by the people of Ireland North and South.
It's time to move on. Time to focus why the largest Unionist party still refuse to sign up to what the people voted for.

Agreed, but not exclusively so.

I have no truck with private armies, the IRA, UVF, etc are a cancer on Irish society.

But you'll vote for the political front of one of them.

But they are borne out of one thing, the failure of British government to apply justice without fear or favour.

Agreed.

It's time they moved on. They are at it again, signing up to a Brexit deal only to start complaining about it afterwards.
When it comes to matters relating to Ireland I do not trust them one bit.

Neither do I.

 

[WolfeTone]

I don't want the British monarch as our head of state or on our money. I don't want to leave the EU. I don't want to join the British Commonwealth. I don't want bombs going off in Dublin and Monaghan again. I don't want any more bigots and god-botherer's in our Parliament.

I don't want any of those things either. I'm not sure who is threatening bombs in Dublin and Monaghan but if such threats exist then we should not cower to them.
Giving into threats of violence is what the British government did in 1914, usurping the democratically achieved will of its own parliament by suspending Home Rule. A week after the suspension the IRB met to plan the Rising and the rest as they say, is history.

Yes, but the IRA are still smuggling cigarettes and laundering Diesel and licencing drug dealers and running protection rackets.

Whatever members of the IRA, or former members of the IRA are engaged in criminality, it is not to SF benefit.
It is simply preposterous at this point to suggest that the party with the single biggest vote share, North and south combined, is arguing housing policy, insurance rackets, healthcare, tax reform etc by day, and selling smuggled fuel and cigs by night.
Every police assessment north and south testifies to this.
This thinking is 20yrs behind the times.

But you'll vote for the political front of one of them

There is no IRArmy.

And my vote is not set in stone. My vote is open to all parties that operate on an All Ireland basis.

 

[Purple]

Whatever members of the IRA, or former members of the IRA are engaged in criminality, it is not to SF benefit.
It is simply preposterous at this point to suggest that the party with the single biggest vote share, North and south combined, is arguing housing policy, insurance rackets, healthcare, tax reform etc by day, and selling smuggled fuel and cigs by night.
Every police assessment north and south testifies to this.

So when SF councillors are kidnapping and waterboarding people because of mutual connections to the Regency Hotel incident, when SF leaders go to the funeral of Slab Murphy, the former IRA man, Good Republican and organised crime figure and when serving SF TD's collect the men who killed a member of the Gardaí during a bank robbery from prison you don't think there's any connection between the Shinners, the IRA and criminality.
And please don't come back with a load of what-about-ism, just answer the question.

 

[cremeegg]

Less famous but in a similar vein is Grisly's "equality is the trojan horse by which we will get the b*stards"

Imagine !

 

[WolfeTone]

SF TD's collect the men who killed a member of the Gardaí during a bank robbery from prison you don't think there's any connection between the Shinners, the IRA and criminality.

I never said there wasn't. I'm saying that is in the past. 'Slab' Murphy was reportedly IRA Army Council involved in diesel smuggling. I know all that, but whatever benefit SF got out of that, if any, is over.

You can harp on about the disdain you have for SF TD's "collecting" the murderers of Jerry McCabe - I actually share that disdain.
But I also accept that I was one of the people who voted to have them released early from prison as part of the GFA. Were you? Did you vote to allow paramilitaries to be released early?
And which political party held the Justice portfolio that signed the release papers? Shouldn't they be held with the same disdain?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

A willingness to release the killers of Jerry McCabe or indeed the sectarian mass murderer Michael Stone as a price worth paying to stop them and/or their comrades from killing again pulls any rug of moral justification from under anybody demanding justice against soldier F 50 years on.
(sorry for the long sentence and poor grammar)

 

[Purple]

But I also accept that I was one of the people who voted to have them released early from prison as part of the GFA. Were you? Did you vote to allow paramilitaries to be released early?
And which political party held the Justice portfolio that signed the release papers? Shouldn't they be held with the same disdain?

Accepting the necessity for something and celebrating the release of bank robbing killers are two quite different things.

 

[WolfeTone]

celebrating the release

What celebration?

This is the contrived nonsense. There was a photograph taken of people who consider themselves comrades. All of whom are retired off the stage.
No different to hundreds of others, both Loyalist and Republicans that were released from prisons in the North.

I have no doubt that British Army soldiers released from prison for murdering children would act the same, except we know that they rarely go to prison due to State cover-up.

The celebratory comments of loyalist and Unionist politicians at this recent outcome, and the near deafening silence from the righteous tells me all need to know about their so-called moral outrage.

 

[Purple]

What celebration?

This is the contrived nonsense. There was a photograph taken of people who consider themselves comrades. All of whom are retired off the stage.
No different to hundreds of others, both Loyalist and Republicans that were released from prisons in the North.

I have no doubt that British Army soldiers released from prison for murdering children would act the same, except we know that they rarely go to prison due to State cover-up.

The celebratory comments of loyalist and Unionist politicians at this recent outcome, and the near deafening silence from the righteous tells me all need to know about their so-called moral outrage.

More whataboutery.
Martin Ferris, a former SF TD, collected both Walsh and McAuley from prison. SF campaigned to have them all released early. As a party they are aligned to former(?) IRA members.

 

[WolfeTone]

Martin Ferris, a former SF TD, collected both Walsh and McAuley from prison. SF campaigned to have them all released early. As a party they are aligned to former(?) IRA members.

I know all that, 20yrs ago.

What I didn't know was that in June 2021 British soldiers were still immune from prosecution for child murder by virtue of the British State.
What point in having a system of law and order operating under an umbrella of "justice and democracy" when still, in 2021, the British State will not apply the law to certain actors?
I'm not asking for soldier F to spend time in prison. But he admitted what he did, so convict him for the murderer he is, and like the rest he can be released early under licence of GFA. The family may at least get some sense of closure.

If his comrades in the army and in the political echolons want to collect him from prison, who cares.

 

[Purple]

I know all that, 20yrs ago.

Yes, and what has changes since?

What I didn't know was that in June 2021 British soldiers were still immune from prosecution for child murder by virtue of the British State.
What point in having a system of law and order operating under an umbrella of "justice and democracy" when still, in 2021, the British State will not apply the law to certain actors?
I'm not asking for soldier F to spend time in prison. But he admitted what he did, so convict him for the murderer he is, and like the rest he can be released early under licence of GFA. The family may at least get some sense of closure.

If his comrades in the army and in the political echolons want to collect him from prison, who cares.

I agree with you.
When Soldier F is running for election here and the party who he is a member of and who supports him in everything he did is seeking to run this country I will be equally concerned about him as I am about the SF/IRA members who are in our Parliament and the UK based Army Council which runs their party.

 

[WolfeTone]

Yes, and what has changes since?

- GFA
- Formal recognition of PSNI as legitimate police force
- Formal ending of armed campaign
- Verifiable decommissioning of weapons
- Verifiable dismantling of military structures and operations.
- A second peace deal with DUP
- Growth in popularity in SF amongst electorate
- Acceptance by Unionism of SF right to participate in government.

Lots of things really.

When Soldier F is running for election here

What has running for eldction got anything to do with being concerned, or otherwise, about him being a child murderer?
I don't recall the murderers of Jerry McCabe running for election?
Your partitionist mindset is ingrained. There is no other way of looking at. The moral outrage at the prospect of SF being in government 'here' for all the things they did diminishes into thin air when it comes the governance of Irish people 'up there' despite the all the things that those in government did to the people, being as despicable as what IRA did.
SF call it a hierarchy of victims. I couldn't agree more. It is a redundant view that has no standing in any parliamentary democracy.
Thankfully, it is a fringe extremist view that you hold that is slowly withering away.

 

[Purple]

- GFA
- Formal recognition of PSNI as legitimate police force
- Formal ending of armed campaign
- Verifiable decommissioning of weapons
- Verifiable dismantling of military structures and operations.
- A second peace deal with DUP
- Growth in popularity in SF amongst electorate
- Acceptance by Unionism of SF right to participate in government.

Lots of things really.

So the killers of Gerry McCabe got out before the GFA? I did not know that.

What has running for eldction got anything to do with being concerned, or otherwise, about him being a child murderer?

I have a problem with child murderers being members of my Parliament.

I don't recall the murderers of Jerry McCabe running for election?

No, but their mates who collected them from prison and supported their actions and saw nothing wrong with those actions are running for election and are being elected.

Your partitionist mindset is ingrained. There is no other way of looking at. The moral outrage at the prospect of SF being in government 'here' for all the things they did diminishes into thin air when it comes the governance of Irish people 'up there' despite the all the things that those in government did to the people, being as despicable as what IRA did.

So your point is that there are murderers in power in Northern Ireland so we shouldn't have a problem with murderers being in power here.

SF call it a hierarchy of victims. I couldn't agree more. It is a redundant view that has no standing in any parliamentary democracy.
Thankfully, it is a fringe extremist view that you hold that is slowly withering away.

That's sounds like the party line alright.

 

[WolfeTone]

I have a problem with child murderers being members of my Parliament.

There are no child murderers as members of our Parliament.

No, but their mates who collected them from prison and supported their actions and saw nothing wrong with those actions are running for election and are being elected.

Name one. Shouldnt be a problem, they are all public figures.

So your point is that there are murderers in power in Northern Ireland so we shouldn't have a problem with murderers being in power here.

No my point is that if there are murderers in power they should be subject to the law like any else.
British soldiers were afforded a lot power in NI, namely the right to be armed in civilian areas. When that power is abused they should be held responsible and accountable like anyone else.
Its June 2021, British State cannot bring themselves to take full responsibility for what their soldiers did in NI.
They have fought the families of the victims in their quest for justice every step of the way, thwarting the investigations into Derry, Ballymurphy, Dublin, Monaghan, Beltubert, Loughinsland, Greysteel, Reavey Brothers, Miami Showband, Finucane, Birmingham, Guildford and on and on...

Repeal the Act of Union in its entirety. Its sole purpose in Ireland is to accommodate a minority people into a sense of insecurity and paranoia. The sooner it is gone, the better for everyone.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I'm not asking for soldier F to spend time in prison. But he admitted what he did, so convict him for the murderer he is, and like the rest he can be released early under licence of GFA. The family may at least get some sense of closure.

I thought it was the pursuit of justice that was your motivation. No, just parity of treatment with the other murderers released under GFA. How much "closure" was cruelly reversed by that shabby process.

 

[cremeegg]

Calling SF supporters child murderers is on a par with calling Catholics child rapists. If you really want you can develop a basis for the claim, but the world knows that you are using an extreme view on the facts to support your own preconceived notions.

 

[WolfeTone]

I thought it was the pursuit of justice that was your motivation.

And you define justice how? It can vary, but a bare minimum it is the application of the law.

How much "closure" was cruelly reversed by that shabby process.

Good point, no doubt many cannot fathom the process. Mrs McCabe being one. Family members of Daniel Hegarty and Karen Reilly also.

But I would figure that none of them would want to wish it upon anybody else to have to go through what they suffered.

 

[Purple]

Calling SF supporters child murderers is on a par with calling Catholics child rapists. If you really want you can develop a basis for the claim, but the world knows that you are using an extreme view on the facts to support your own preconceived notions.

No, I'm calling them fellow travellers with child killers. The IRA murdered children. SF grew out of the IRA, are still run by members of the IRA's Army Council. SF have never condemned the murdering of children by the IRA. When former(?) leaders of the IRA die, men who were in charge when they murdered children, members of SF who hold elected office in this country go to their funerals, carry their coffins and give orations.
I don't know any Catholics who don't condemn child rapists. I don't know any leaders of the Catholic Church who give eulogies at the funerals of child rapists. I'm not aware of any leaders of the Catholic Church who collect child rapists from prison. I'm not aware of any leaders of the Catholic Church who are accused of ordering the rape of children. So no, it's not the same thing at all.
I'm not a fan of religion in general. I'm certainly no fan of the Roman Catholic Church but it is a gross disservice to them to accuse them of being as bad as Sinn Fein and their followers.

 

[Imperator]

The IRA killed many people including children. Those killings should be condemned and those who thought the IRA were justified in their general campaign should be challenged on this, particularly if they are seeking elected office. Recent statements by Sinn Fein representatives focus on the IRA campaign and not on the cost to people, including child victims.

In 2020 Sinn Fein TD Brian Stanley posted the following tweet concerning the 1920 Kilmichael and 1979 Warrenpoint / Narrow Water ambushes "2 IRA operations that taught d elite of the British army and the establishment the cost of occupying Ireland. Pity they were such slow learners". [from the RTE website] This was ignorant, vainglorious, nasty rhetoric, and he ignored the fact that on the same day as the 1979 Warrenpoint ambush the IRA killed Mountbatten (a retired naval veteran who thought there would be a united Ireland), an 83-year old woman, and two young boys of 14 and 15. He apologized after he was criticized heavily, but he can be asked fairly why killing a bunch of soldiers was worthy of celebrating while at the same time ignoring blowing up children a few miles away.

Sinn Fein TD David Cullinane's recent, ignorant, in-your-face 'Up the 'Ra' shout represented a view that celebrated IRA actions and that glossed over its despicable acts.

Based on the fairly recent words of two senior Sinn Fein politicians, it looks like they are more interested in delivering a blanket approval to IRA actions than in acknowledging the atrocities that were perpetrated (including those against children).

It's hard for everybody to move on when elected representatives come out with such stuff.

 

[Purple]

The IRA killed many people including children. Those killings should be condemned and those who thought the IRA were justified in their general campaign should be challenged on this, particularly if they are seeking elected office. Recent statements by Sinn Fein representatives focus on the IRA campaign and not on the cost to people, including child victims.

In 2020 Sinn Fein TD Brian Stanley posted the following tweet concerning the 1920 Kilmichael and 1979 Warrenpoint / Narrow Water ambushes "2 IRA operations that taught d elite of the British army and the establishment the cost of occupying Ireland. Pity they were such slow learners". [from the RTE website] This was ignorant, vainglorious, nasty rhetoric, and he ignored the fact that on the same day as the 1979 Warrenpoint ambush the IRA killed Mountbatten (a retired naval veteran who thought there would be a united Ireland), an 83-year old woman, and two young boys of 14 and 15. He apologized after he was criticized heavily, but he can be asked fairly why killing a bunch of soldiers was worthy of celebrating while at the same time ignoring blowing up children a few miles away.

Sinn Fein TD David Cullinane's recent, ignorant, in-your-face 'Up the 'Ra' shout represented a view that celebrated IRA actions and that glossed over its despicable acts.

Based on the fairly recent words of two senior Sinn Fein politicians, it looks like they are more interested in delivering a blanket approval to IRA actions than in acknowledging the atrocities that were perpetrated (including those against children).

It's hard for everybody to move on when elected representatives come out with such stuff.

Well said.

If Sinn Fein deal with their IRA links and their IRA recent past then I'll consider the issue closed and move on to just commenting on their pseudo-socialist populist policies which won't help working people, will wreck the economy, will worsen the housing crisis and won't narrow the wealth gap in the country.