Abolition of The Groceries Order

[Humpback]

Is the lifting of the order immediate? When will we actually be able to buy groceries cheaper?

I don't think so.

The quote from the Enterprise, Trade and Employment website for Minister Martin is as follows -

"The Minister for Enterprise, Trade & Employment today (Tuesday, 8 November, 2005) announced that he had secured the approval of the Government for the repeal of the Restrictive Practices (Groceries) Order 1987 in its entirety."

No where is it indicated when the repeal will take place. On yesterdays radio coverage it was mentioned that this would only happen when alternative competition legislation will be put in place.

So, they're getting all this kudos on the basis of an intention, rather than an action. Which is typical for this Government.

Any guesses on how many weeks/months/years it will take to actually drop the Groceries Order?

 

[ClubMan]

Before Easter [broken link removed]. But isn't it the case that any shop that decided to sell below (invoice) cost now would hardly be prosecuted or taken to task over it now that the Order is to be repealed? Not that I'd condone lawbreaking obviously...

 

[ubiquitous]

Who cares about the small shopkeeper anyway? Close down if its not profitable, its called redundancy and it happens every day. Get a job in the new Spar instead.

Practically all the small shopkeepers in my neck of the woods have converted their stores to Spar/Centra/Mace/Gala/Vivo franchises in the past few years.

 

[Humpback]

Before Easter [broken link removed]. But isn't it the case that any shop that decided to sell below (invoice) cost now would hardly be prosecuted or taken to task over it now that the Order is to be repealed? Not that I'd condone lawbreaking obviously...

I'd imagine that this is probably going to be the case. And this might be the reason for the offers being reported further above in this thread.

Does this mean that, in effect, the announcement yesterday was really just that Minister Martin told the Director of Consumer Affairs to ignore a central part of her enforcement legislation?

Hardly satisfactory really, is it? Could RGDATA or others have some recourse here to insist that legislation be applied, and not ignored?

 

[Gunnerbar]

Where does this 75% come from? According to http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/0/62d49d52d4bc449780256f0f003bc7ea/$FILE/2.%20Ireland%201992%20and%202002.pdf (this report) c. 60% of the population of Ireland lived in urban areas in 2000 and possibly even more today. Also 1.5 million of a total population of just less than 4 million, or almost 40%, lived in the greater Dublin area in 2001. Do you really believe that 75% of the population live in the sticks with no choice in terms of where they can shop other than the local shop? And if they do and there is no other choice then surely the local shop is not under threat by default??

Now it's you that isn't reading the posts accurately. Where did I say that 75% of the population live in the sticks or to be more accurate in rural areas. I was refering to proximity to a town.

OK 75% was a guesstimate but I would imagine it's not too far off the mark. According to the report you linked " 1.5 M people lived in the Greater Dublin area in 2001". And considering the developmenmt of some of the one time small towns which now have a suburbia; it costs to get into the main town. That's all. You yourself admitted to having to use public transport to get into the city which was my point originally! Which is relatively expensive and time consuming, unless you are getting a large order when other problems will become apparent. Point!

Rather than working off clues that you detect in the tone why don't you just read the words instead?

And to think I thought you were vehemently in favour of dropping the groceries order!

Give me a break Clubman. Try making the tone of your posts clearer if I got you wrong!
(Which I didn't)

 

[ClubMan]

OK 75% was a guesstimate

OK - so you made it up. Thanks for clarifying that.

Anyway - can you explain this seeming contradiction:

Yes, the real independents. The local cornershop. Who have also to survive against the franchises as well as the conglomerates.

...

In all fairness now I'm not talking about those that live in or near a town, who would have access to every style of outlet and can pick and choose. I'm talking about the other 75% of the population to whom these local shops serve.

Good luck to you if you have a real choice to pick and choose and don't live a distance away.

You seem to be bemoaning the threat to certain "local cornershops" (images of The League of Gentlemen spring to mind) posed by the multiples especially in the aftermath of the abolition of the GO but you also bemoan the lack of choice in terms of shopping outlets available to certain remote (?) communities. How do you square this seemingly contradictory argument? If the community only has the local shop then it is not under threat. If the multiples move in then they have more choice. Which is more important in your view because you can't really have both?

Give me a break Clubman. Try making the tone of your posts clearer if I got you wrong!

Haven't a clue what you mean by making the tone of my posts clearer. I try to concentrate on keeping the content as clear as possible but some people still seem fixated on tone for some reason...

 

[Gunnerbar]

OK - so you made it up. Thanks for clarifying that.

Eh, no I didn't make it up. I estimated it from the figures you gave me. You know where I was coming from so there's no need to be so pedantic.

Anyway - can you explain this seeming contradiction:


You seem to be bemoaning the threat to certain "local cornershops" (images of The League of Gentlemen spring to mind) posed by the multiples especially in the aftermath of the abolition of the GO but you also bemoan the lack of choice in terms of shopping outlets available to certain remote (?) communities. How do you square this seemingly contradictory argument? If the community only has the local shop then it is not under threat. If the multiples move in then they have more choice. Which is more important in your view because you can't really have both?

Firstly, have you ever been in a "corner shop". If you think that these outlets resemble something from A League of Gentlemen then I can kinda understand where your coming from. But they're not. Secondly I wasn't bemoaning the lack of choice in suburban areas. I know right well you can't have a super market on every estate. But maybe you were trying to glean something from my (percieved) tone! {fixated indeed}!

Haven't a clue what you mean by making the tone of my posts clearer. I try to concentrate on keeping the content as clear as possible but some people still seem fixated on tone for some reason...

Who cares about the small shopkeeper anyway? Close down if its not profitable, its called redundancy and it happens every day. Get a job in the new Spar instead.

Maybe it was meant to be funny?

But try here for a well balanced and heat free discussion!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054846980

 

[ClubMan]

Eh, no I didn't make it up. I estimated it from the figures you gave me. You know where I was coming from so there's no need to be so pedantic.

I gave you the figures after you posted the 75% "guesstimate". Please try and pay attention. Not being pedantic either - just trying to clarify if there is any substance to your figures. Seemingly not.

Firstly, have you ever been in a "corner shop".

Er, well - yeah. What's your point?

Secondly I wasn't bemoaning the lack of choice in suburban areas. I know right well you can't have a super market on every estate. But maybe you were trying to glean something from my (percieved) tone! {fixated indeed}!

I never mentioned suburban areas. As I said - read my words and don't try to infer things from tone and the like. You still haven't explained how you square your concern for the hard pressed "corner shop" owners with the lack of shopping outlet choices available to some people. Let me make it simple for you - which is more important to you: the survival of small independent retailers or the availability of wider choice (and value) to consumers?

 

[ubiquitous]

Lads can we move this discussion on please?

For what its worth, I have never found much of a difference between the relative numbers of corner shops in the North (where there is and was no Groceries Order) and in the South, so I can't see the end of the Groceries Order making much difference to this sector.

 

[Gunnerbar]

I gave you the figures after you posted the 75% "guesstimate". Please try and pay attention. Not being pedantic either - just trying to clarify if there is any substance to your figures. Seemingly not.

Again, the figures were not complete for suburban areas which is what I was referring to! And I don't think I was enormously off the mark with what I was trying to illustrate!

Er, well - yeah. What's your point?

Blatently obvious!

I never mentioned suburban areas. As I said - read my words and don't try to infer things from tone and the like. You still haven't explained how you square your concern for the hard pressed "corner shop" owners with the lack of shopping outlet choices available to some people. Let me make it simple for you - which is more important to you: the survival of small independent retailers or the availability of wider choice (and value) to consumers?

Yes, I know YOU never mentioned suburban areas it was I who was referring to them in the first instance. You assumed as much.

Of course open and FAIR competition is vital everywhere in business. And your "either - or" question is such an overly simplification of the matter that's it's not even worth answering. Sorry!

Fin

 

[CCOVICH]

Aldi and Lidl sell groceries cheaper than Dunnes and Tesco
Tesco and Dunnes sell groceries for less than Superquinn and SuperValu
Superquinn and SuperValu sell groceries cheaper than Spar and Centra
Spar and Centra sell goods cheaper than Texaco and Esso
Texaco and Esso sell goods cheaper than Smiths Shop and BJ Murphys

This was/is the case under the Groceries Order.

What difference will it's abolition make? If there is demand for a shop at the moment, there is likely to be demand in the future, as long as that shop is able to offer something that it's customers place a value on, be it cost, quality, convenience, service, employment, profits for the owners, whatever.

My family used to live 10 miles from the nearest multiple, and our local 'corner shop' was 3 miles away. We used to get our weekly shop in the multiple, if we needed extra milk or the Sunday paper, we went to the 'corner shop' (no corners in the village). That shop is still there today, even with the arrival of Lidl and Aldi.

I don't see what the big deal is. Grocery inflation in the UK was 13% in the past 10 years. The comparitive figure for Ireland was around 30% (from today's Irish Times). So prices increased in the UK, albeit at a slower rate.

 

[Humpback]

So prices increased in the UK, albeit at a slower rate.

I think this is the key to the eventual (if it ever happens) repeal of the Groceries Order. Prices aren't necessarily going to decrease, and this €1000 saving for a family is a bit of a "pie in the sky" notion anyway.

Prices may not increase as fast because of the repeal of the Order, rather than prices going down (long term, rather than short term).

 

[CCOVICH]

I think this is the key to the eventual (if it ever happens) repeal of the Groceries Order. Prices aren't necessarily going to decrease, and this €1000 saving for a family is a bit of a "pie in the sky" notion anyway.

Prices may not increase as fast because of the repeal of the Order, rather than prices going down (long term, rather than short term).

I think the figure that is/was being bandied about is closer to €500, but anyway.

 

[Humpback]

I think the figure that is/was being bandied about is closer to €500, but anyway.

[broken link removed]

I believe Eddie Hobbs, his facts are known to be *************************

 

[Jister]

The €1000 is relative to the size of the family surely? The supermarkets will slash the price on certain commodoties to lure in customers. EG if milk, bread, eggs and a few other items are slashed then people will go the the supermarket more often and buy all the other items at reasonably standard prices.

 

[Teabag]

Now that Michael Martin has abolished the Groceries Order, will he return the nappy I sent him ? I put the sender address on the back of the envelope.

I knew I should have sent him a used one.

 

[extopia]

No corner shops left where I live. No, actually there is one, who sells out of date chocolate bars to kids (full price of course, no discount). When I pointed it out he called me "silly, sure there's nothing wrong with it."

I don't have much affection for this kind of business. Small shops can survive if they add value to what they have to sell. Expertise. Stuff You Can't Get Anywhere Else. Whatever. I personally don't want to subsidise this kind of anachronism anymore. If the local Trevor or Morton can't compete with supermarkets without anti free market directives in place he should get into a different business. No one is owed a living, not even your local shopkeeper.

 

[Humpback]

Now that Michael Martin has abolished the Groceries Order, will he return the nappy I sent him ? I put the sender address on the back of the envelope.QUOTE]

Well, seeing as he hasn't actually abolished it, maybe he's keeping a hold of it in case prices don't drop between now and whenever he does actually abolish it.