A professional needs to keep a house befitting his/her professional status?: liveline

Bronte said:
I have no problem with debt write down, where the person cannot afford their loans, no problem with keeping people in modest homes where the alternative doesn't make social or financial sense. But allowing someone live in a mansion just because of their 'professional' 'status' which means less of their income will go to pay off their debts sounds cuckoo.
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Personally I believe it's politically impossible to define a modest family home.

I think this is the crux of the problem we have, unlimited protection for family homes will always be of most benefit to the people in the most expensive homes.
 
Bronte said:
No he's not suggesting that, he's suggesting that other taxpayers subsidise them and their bad financial decisions. That's it plain and simple.

I have no problem with debt write down, where the person cannot afford their loans, no problem with keeping people in modest homes where the alternative doesn't make social or financial sense. But allowing someone live in a mansion just because of their 'professional' 'status' which means less of their income will go to pay off their debts sounds cuckoo. The only time it would do so is if the person threatened UK bankruptcy. Not too many Irish solicitors, barristers, consultants and accountants have that nuclear option.

Nobody has said anything about the converse situation. What about the couple with 3 kids in a 2 bed apartment that is not suitable for their needs. And we all know Irish 2 beds is actually a 1.5 bed with zero storage space. There are many people stuck in these, who cannot afford their mortgage and cannot afford to move and now cannot afford the new insolvency regime.

The whole thing stinks from top to bottom. How on earth did we end up with once again the most ill thought out insolvency regime, that gives no proper end date, no hope, possibility of 20 years on the hook, and is too costly for ordinary people.
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+1
We live in a republic with no stratified class system. There is no such thing as "Professional Classes" or even working classes and middle classes. There are different income levels and different socio-economic groupings that people can find themselves in. Using the term "class" is a tacit acceptance that not only is society unequal (which it is) but that it should be unequal.

This country had been badly let down by it's leaders over the last 15 years, be they political, banking, union or public sector leaders. The one thing they all have in common is that they are over 40 and nearly all over 60. They have escaped the worst of the property crash and they have escaped the worst of the cuts.
 
Isn't "socio economic grouping" as you call it, not the modern name for "Class"

Just because its frowned upon to have a class system doesn't mean its not there. Just because we play around with words and call it something different doesn't mean its gone.

At least in olden times, people were upfront about it and acknowledged its existence. If its gone, when did it go ? I didn't notice it going away.

As far as I'm concerned the class system is alive and well and living in Ireland (but we're not allowed to talk about it)

Ask Jim Stafford, he'll tell you.
 
Dr.Debt said:
Isn't "socio economic grouping" as you call it, not the modern name for "Class"

Just because its frowned upon to have a class system doesn't mean its not there. Just because we play around with words and call it something different doesn't mean its gone.

At least in olden times, people were upfront about it and acknowledged its existence. If its gone, when did it go ? I didn't notice it going away.

As far as I'm concerned the class system is alive and well and living in Ireland (but we're not allowed to talk about it)

Ask Jim Stafford, he'll tell you.
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In a class system you are born into one and accept your place in the order of things. It presupposes that one person is better than another by virtue of birth, with no bearing being put on ability or hard work. It is the opposite of a meritocracy, the opposite of what we should strive towards.
Using phrases life working class and professional class is an acceptance of the world view that Jim Stafford seems to have.
 
Dr.Debt said:
Isn't "socio economic grouping" as you call it, not the modern name for "Class"

Just because its frowned upon to have a class system doesn't mean its not there. Just because we play around with words and call it something different doesn't mean its gone.

At least in olden times, people were upfront about it and acknowledged its existence. If its gone, when did it go ? I didn't notice it going away.

As far as I'm concerned the class system is alive and well and living in Ireland (but we're not allowed to talk about it)

Ask Jim Stafford, he'll tell you.
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But that's the bizarre thing. Jim Stafford seemed to consider his own world view so unremarkable that he thought nothing of trotting it out on national radio. Admittedly he used the term "professional status in society" rather than "class", but I don't think he left us in much doubt when he said that not only their clients but their neighbours should be able to see that they are (for example) a good solicitor, by virtue of the size of their house. If we're not supposed to talk about class, Jim Stafford shouted it from the rooftops. Maybe he just thinks that such niceties can be abandoned when talking about offloading the debts of the privileged onto the less privileged. After all, if professional business is all about client optics, then I guess Mr. Stafford has to be heard to say the right kind of things by his target clientele. So maybe the whole thing was just a bit of soft advertising that backfired.
 
Dr.Debt said:
At least in olden times, people were upfront about it and acknowledged its existence. If its gone, when did it go ? I didn't notice it going away.

As far as I'm concerned the class system is alive and well and living in Ireland (but we're not allowed to talk about it)

.
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I don't recognise this Ireland that you are referring to.

Are you saying that if you have a professional qualification in the area of law, medicine or accountancy that makes you a certain class of person?

If the people that Jim Stafford deals with and indeed he believes that they are of a different class to the rest of us, and you seem to agree too, well that's doesn't mean it's true. He can look down his nose on the rest of us, as that is what he appears to be doing, but it's quite pathetic that certain people actually judge people by the size of house they live in. No doubt they are discussing it in the fine drawing rooms in SDC.

Other than those pathetic people does anyone on AAM hire any professional based on their house size and location? I'm sure Michael Lynn lived in a fine house, Thomas Byrne also, Tom McFeeley (maybe he doesn't count as he's not 'professional'), Breifney O' Brien, Gay Byrne's accountant, Fingleton, Seanie..... These people managed to -----(use any word you like) PAYE workers and I see no difference to what they did then to what Stafford is now trying to imply into the insolvency legislation.
 
Bronte;
Yup , the best word you used is PATHETIC.

This does not change my strong perception that the (RULES) are for the Little People.
Us Leprechauns will just have to accept that our Professional Bankers/Solicitors/Accountants can and do work in the same Rules as we do.
The DIFFERENCE THOUGH is HOW the RULES are applied.
Inadvertently MR Stafford was honest !
ie Same Rules but Different outcome.

You couldn,t make it up !

Another strong coffee please!
 
The funny thing is that not too many solicitors will go through the personal insolvency procedures as they will be disqualified from practising. They will use private deals etc so they can carry on making a living.
 
The scenario with the 'professional' is rarely going to happen, deals will be done behind closed doors and most will probably end up with their 150k jobs like the majority of the NAMA family. The ones that concern me are the couples with 2 or 3 kids in a 3 bed semi with 100k NE, one wage just about covering the house keeping and interest only agreement on their mortgage that is in 30k arrears.They are just digging themselves deeper and deeper into the hole. And from what I have seen to date they will get no help from anybody because they can't afford it. The Celtic Tiger lives on, he's just so well camouflaged and of cource a protected species in these parts.
 
Jim Stafford's comments were outrageous but sadly I sense some truth in them. The Insolvency legislation that so many people have been waiting for has been set up in a way that will assist "professionals" with decent incomes, a family home and a few investment properties. I imagine they will seek to sell the investments, the negative equity portion will become unsecured debt which they will pay a portion of over a period of years while retaining the family home. In effect the tax payer will be taking the hit for their bad investments. On the other hand people with a single family home who are unemployed or on very low incomes will not have this option.
 
You will be hard set to find a solicitor doing a PIA. Professional suicide.
 
Just goes to show what a sham this insolvency situation is , and will be untill there are a number of various cases built up that will give the PIA a certain guidline to work to on certain workable conclusions. This could take years before a real solution is found to an ever growing problem. If this is what they have been teaching prospective PIA's in PIA school then God help us. Just more kicking of the well dented can.
 
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