Key Post A DIY bankruptcy guide - contributors wanted!
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
- Start date
Section 133 (b) (4) A debtor may not present a petition for adjudication unless the petition is accompanied by an affidavit sworn by the debtor that he has, prior to presenting the petition, made reasonable efforts to reach an appropriate arrangement with his creditors relating to his debts by making a proposal for a Debt Settlement Arrangement ora Personal Insolvency Arrangement to the extent that the circumstances of the debtor would permit him to enter into such an arrangement.
So the way they appear to be interpreting that section, for a bankrupt, is that a meeting with a PIP will suffice. Pat2, did you have a letter from the PIP stating that you were not eligible for a PIA/DSA? Surely you must prove that somehow to the official assignee?
Matthew Moore
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Bronte, I don't have a letter but I'm sure he would provide one if required. I'd imagine though that the affidavit would be sufficient as if you lied and your creditors could prove it, they would have good grounds to prevent your discharge.
Section 133 (b) (4) A debtor may not present a petition for adjudication unless the petition is accompanied by an affidavit sworn by the debtor that he has, prior to presenting the petition, made reasonable efforts to reach an appropriate arrangement with his creditors relating to his debts by making a proposal for a Debt Settlement Arrangement or a Personal Insolvency Arrangement to the extent that the circumstances of the debtor would permit him to enter into such an arrangement."
It seems to be that you must enter a DSA/PIA first if you are eligible but can proceed directly to bankruptcy, if like me, you have nothing to offer.
Section 133 (b) (4) A debtor may not present a petition for adjudication unless the petition is accompanied by an affidavit sworn by the debtor that he has, prior to presenting the petition, made reasonable efforts to reach an appropriate arrangement with his creditors relating to his debts by making a proposal for a Debt Settlement Arrangement or a Personal Insolvency Arrangement to the extent that the circumstances of the debtor would permit him to enter into such an arrangement."
It seems to be that you must enter a DSA/PIA first if you are eligible but can proceed directly to bankruptcy, if like me, you have nothing to offer.
Well that's great news indeed Pat2. An affidavit is enough. It would be really great if you can tell us how you get on in this process. There are a lot of worried people out there and your advice will be invaluable.
I myself had decided the legislation was hopeless because of the costs of a PIP, but maybe this will be a solution for people.
Is your affidavit based on a template?
I myself had decided the legislation was hopeless because of the costs of a PIP, but maybe this will be a solution for people.
Is your affidavit based on a template?
Matthew Moore
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I haven't done the affidavit yet but as soon as I do I will post details. I will also post details of the process where possible. As mentioned the need for €1900 in assets is preventing me from proceeding at the moment.
I think there are many advantages over the UK bankruptcy system. Yes there is the headline 1year -v- 3year, but in reality you'll be in the UK for longer than that. It also appears from some posters on this site that you would be much better off with professional assistance in the UK and that isn't cheap. At least in Ireland you will have support networks from family, friends, charities/not for profit groups and the state if required. The family home can't be sold without a court order either which will give you a chance to get your side of the story out too and may result in a stay or decline in the sale completely. Also, it seems that with a little research, you should be able to do it yourself.
It does, at last, seem that there is light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train!
I think there are many advantages over the UK bankruptcy system. Yes there is the headline 1year -v- 3year, but in reality you'll be in the UK for longer than that. It also appears from some posters on this site that you would be much better off with professional assistance in the UK and that isn't cheap. At least in Ireland you will have support networks from family, friends, charities/not for profit groups and the state if required. The family home can't be sold without a court order either which will give you a chance to get your side of the story out too and may result in a stay or decline in the sale completely. Also, it seems that with a little research, you should be able to do it yourself.
It does, at last, seem that there is light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train!
Email I received from Official Assignee office when asking about bankruptcy. (this was in August) hope it helps. Pat2 seems to be on the ball and given most of this info already. Same as Pat2, I cannot apply yet either due to needing the €1900 assets when applying, so am waiting for the new rules.
If you decide to apply to the High Court you make yourself bankrupt,
the initial costs are as follows:
- lodgement of €650 to the Official Assignee,
- after you have lodged this money to the Official Assignee account
(please see details from our website on this below) you then have to
attend at the Examiner's Office of the High Court in Smithfield,
Dublin 7 and lodge a petition and affidavit with them - stamp duty of
approximately €100 is payable on these 2 documents. I would suggest
that you contact the Examiner's Office in advance: their email is
Examinersmail@courts.ie or you could ring them on (01) 888 6221 as our
office does not take in any documents relating to bankruptcy before a
bankruptcy order is actually made.
After you are made bankrupt you must then arrange and pay for an
advertisement of notice of your bankruptcy in a national newspaper and
in an official publication called the Iris Oifigiuil - the newspaper
ad can cost €500 or more depending on the newspaper plus the Iris
Oifigiuil ad costs approximately €64.
If you are applying to Court to be declared bankrupt after the new
legislation dealing with bankruptcy comes into force (which is
expected to be October) then your affidavit must confirm that you have
made reasonable efforts to reach an appropriate arrangement with your
creditors by making a proposal for a Debt Settlement Arrangement or
Personal Insolvency Arrangement.
I hope this is of some assistance.
Extract from website office page;
You should lodge €650 to the Official Assignee Holding Account as
follows:
Account name: The Official Assignee in Bankruptcy
Account Address: AIB Bank, Capel Street, Dublin 1
Sort Code: 93 11 01
Account Number: 44043077
IBAN: (if applicable) IE79AIBK931101
When lodging funds to this account, you must ensure that you quote
the following references:
- Name of Solicitor issuing petition
- Debtor’s name
You should email the office at
officialassigneeinbankruptcy@courts.ie to confirm the above
details. Attach a scanned copy bank lodgement confirmation of the
payment into the above account.
We will then forward a receipt by email. This email receipt should
then be produced as evidence of payment when attending to issue the
petition at the Office of the Examiner of the High Court.
This practice change will avoid customers having to attend at Block
2, Phoenix House, Conyngham Road, Dublin 8 to pay the €650 fee and
receive a receipt for production to the Office of the Examiner of
the High Court.
If you decide to apply to the High Court you make yourself bankrupt,
the initial costs are as follows:
- lodgement of €650 to the Official Assignee,
- after you have lodged this money to the Official Assignee account
(please see details from our website on this below) you then have to
attend at the Examiner's Office of the High Court in Smithfield,
Dublin 7 and lodge a petition and affidavit with them - stamp duty of
approximately €100 is payable on these 2 documents. I would suggest
that you contact the Examiner's Office in advance: their email is
Examinersmail@courts.ie or you could ring them on (01) 888 6221 as our
office does not take in any documents relating to bankruptcy before a
bankruptcy order is actually made.
After you are made bankrupt you must then arrange and pay for an
advertisement of notice of your bankruptcy in a national newspaper and
in an official publication called the Iris Oifigiuil - the newspaper
ad can cost €500 or more depending on the newspaper plus the Iris
Oifigiuil ad costs approximately €64.
If you are applying to Court to be declared bankrupt after the new
legislation dealing with bankruptcy comes into force (which is
expected to be October) then your affidavit must confirm that you have
made reasonable efforts to reach an appropriate arrangement with your
creditors by making a proposal for a Debt Settlement Arrangement or
Personal Insolvency Arrangement.
I hope this is of some assistance.
Extract from website office page;
You should lodge €650 to the Official Assignee Holding Account as
follows:
Account name: The Official Assignee in Bankruptcy
Account Address: AIB Bank, Capel Street, Dublin 1
Sort Code: 93 11 01
Account Number: 44043077
IBAN: (if applicable) IE79AIBK931101
When lodging funds to this account, you must ensure that you quote
the following references:
- Name of Solicitor issuing petition
- Debtor’s name
You should email the office at
officialassigneeinbankruptcy@courts.ie to confirm the above
details. Attach a scanned copy bank lodgement confirmation of the
payment into the above account.
We will then forward a receipt by email. This email receipt should
then be produced as evidence of payment when attending to issue the
petition at the Office of the Examiner of the High Court.
This practice change will avoid customers having to attend at Block
2, Phoenix House, Conyngham Road, Dublin 8 to pay the €650 fee and
receive a receipt for production to the Office of the Examiner of
the High Court.
From that I thought that just proving you can't pay anything at all, and have told/proved to the creditors that you cannot pay anything, this would be enough to apply for bankruptcy.
At the moment you need the €1900 in assets, but after the new rules are in, you don't need €1900 assets, but... you will be needing near enough that amount just to get confirmation from a PIP that you can't pay the debts.
Is there any point waiting? I would have to borrow to apply now and not need PIP, or still borrow to go to a PIP later anyway. Both ways, you still need money to go bankrupt
At the moment you need the €1900 in assets, but after the new rules are in, you don't need €1900 assets, but... you will be needing near enough that amount just to get confirmation from a PIP that you can't pay the debts.
Is there any point waiting? I would have to borrow to apply now and not need PIP, or still borrow to go to a PIP later anyway. Both ways, you still need money to go bankrupt
Ok both those points seem logical. You're one of the first guineapig's I reckon. It seems to be not so difficult a process. Have you found it difficult so far, you said the PIA and OA were very helpful, so that's good news.
I also agree with you that a 3 year Irish is better than a 18 months English bankruptcy. Apart from the time difference, is there anything else negative about the Irish bankruptcy that would worry you?
How is it you think the family home might be retained? In what circumstances.
2 things.
The ad costs in a national newspaper are horrendous. I would have expected the national newspapers to be more considerate in their pricings for these ads.
You mention on the document you have to put the name of the Solicitor issuing the petition, but I imagine that is because, normally petitions are done by Solicitors but in your case it will be you alone? Presumably because bankrupts cannot afford to hire anybody.
Matthew Moore
Registered User
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- 286
Yes it seems I will be a guineapig and this is something that I had to consider strongly but on weighing up the pro's and con's, I'd sooner get the process started then hang around. Many of the rules will surely be made up as we go along but that is the nature of the beast.
I haven't formally began the process yet so can't really comment on it's difficulty. Trying to find information and scenarios is difficult though but I suppose that's because it's relatively new to everyone. Once you get a definitive answer it usually creates a further question or two.
I don't worry about the process at all, I'm only 31 and have probably at least another 40 years of work ahead of me so at that stage this time will seem like a drop in the ocean. It's important for everyone in trouble to remember that things will get better, and probably get bad again, and better again etc but that is life. It's not what happens to us that defines us, it's how we deal with it that matters. There's always positives to be found around you, you need to embrace them and remain resilient.
I do wonder how discharged bankrupts will be viewed in 5 - 10 years by financial institutions. Time will tell.
In relation to the house, some interesting comments have been made by the OA's office, especially where the mortgage is a joint mortgage in negative equity and one party is bankrupt. He spoke of selling his half to the other spouse for a minimum of €5000 where the house is in NE. At a very minimum, the official assingee must get a court order to sell the home so it will be interesting to see how they are treated.
I can't post links yet but this is a very interesting read.
h**p://w#w.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0906/472725-insolvency-service-home/
Very wise words from someone so young.
Here's the link
http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0906/472725-insolvency-service-home/
and very interesting reading it is too. The guy in charge seems to have picked the 5K out of thin air.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/insolvency-official-highlights-spouses-1.1519030
Matthew Moore
Registered User
- Messages
- 286
Thanks Bronte, it's a while since I felt young though and I'm not old enough to be wise!
An article on the Irish Times website today talks about an "Avalanche" of bankruptcies expected next month. They quote the Dept. of Justice as saying the section dealing with Bankruptcy will be commenced in a couple of weeks.
I doubt there will be an avalanche considering the low amount of Protective Certificates issued under the other arrangements.
An article on the Irish Times website today talks about an "Avalanche" of bankruptcies expected next month. They quote the Dept. of Justice as saying the section dealing with Bankruptcy will be commenced in a couple of weeks.
I doubt there will be an avalanche considering the low amount of Protective Certificates issued under the other arrangements.
Yes, the cost of the ad, I can't understand the pricing of that at all. I did wonder too at the request for Solicitors name, in my case, no I couldn't afford one. I have spoken to so many people over the phone (solicitors, debt advice places, accountant, so many I can't remember who said what) about the need for a solicitor as it stands right now, they said no, I can go ahead on my own, but that in the new legislation, they were under the impression that I did have to go through a PIP. They did say to at least get advice from a solicitor before going ahead though.
I think I will just have to wait and see how easy or hard it is by reading how other people get on with it. I would be very nervous that I would miss out documents, or forget to send this or that, have to start over again.
Steve Thatcher
Registered User
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- 482
Hi guys I am trying to stay out if this in case I seem like pushing for work. I never do that. But I am worried that you have missed this or I have got it wrong
If you are applying to Court to be declared bankrupt after the new
legislation dealing with bankruptcy comes into force (which is
expected to be October) then your affidavit must confirm that you have
made reasonable efforts to reach an appropriate arrangement with your
creditors by making a proposal for a Debt Settlement Arrangement or
Personal Insolvency Arrangement.
Does this not suggest you have to make the PIA or DSA before you can apply for bankruptcy
The key word is "making" and this from the IS
Hence the need to engage a PIP
This is what I assumed months ago. Has it now changed that you can simply file an affi saying you can't do a DSA or PIA
Steve Thatcher
Yes it did suggest that, but now it appears that the official assignee is interpreting this to mean that you've merely to confirm by affidavit that you've made reasonable efforts and that's it. Maybe the OA thinks it a bit silly for people who are broke to pay a PIP 5K to say they are broke and not eligible for a DSA or PIA.
A judge last week, in one of the first cases, Judge Ryan I think, stated that she wanted to help people and make things easier for people who are broke and didn't want the PIS (personal insolvency service) service adding in unhelpful comments to the documents before her. She apparently only wanted two documents. One a list from the PIP of the state of financials (I assume assets and liabilities) and the other a certificate of some sort from the PIS that the person was eligible. (Some top people from the PIS were in court I believe). Sounds like it's going to be a rubber stamping exercise by the courts all told. And seems like a waste of tax payers money that judges have to be tied up on this.
Matthew Moore
Registered User
- Messages
- 286
Steve, it appears there should be some very relevant words added there which we discussed earlier in the thread.
Section 133 (b) (4) A debtor may not present a petition for adjudication unless the petition is accompanied by an affidavit sworn by the debtor that he has, prior to presenting the petition, made reasonable efforts to reach an appropriate arrangement with his creditors relating to his debts by making a proposal for a Debt Settlement Arrangement or a Personal Insolvency Arrangement to the extent that the circumstances of the debtor would permit him to enter into such an arrangement."
Matthew Moore
Registered User
- Messages
- 286
No, still waiting. Spoke to local FG TD last week and she confirmed that it's in the final stages. Didn't hear the OA, when was he on?