Occupier of house dies that was left to 4 offspring but dies aboad?

[NOAH]

The situation as follows. My sister died and left the house that she paid for to her 4 children from her first marriage. The will stipulated that her second husband could remain in the house for the rest of his days. he has now died abroad but before he went back to UK to die he handed in the keys of the house to the solicitor who drew up will. The death occurred 12th Dec and buried 19th December. Nothing has been forthcoming from the solicitor. The house is empty.

3 of the children are in UK and one here. the intention is to sell house and split 4 ways.

They have no idea what to do and neither do I their uncle.

Will they incur capital gains?

Any advice greatly appreciated. The solicitor who handled the case when the mother passed away took over a year to deal with a non existent estate and charged €5000.00 out of a 26k sum.

How do they get keys? Can solicitor insist he deals with sale of property and division of any gain? Will this take years to resolve?


noah

 

[Pique318]

Keys are with solicitor I assume for safe keeping.

Who is the Executor of your Sisters will ?

 

[Bronte]

The children are inheriting the house from their mother. There is no real relevance to the fact that the solicitor has the keys. He does not have to be the executor of the will unless it is stated that he is. If not the children can decide who is to be executor, in fact one of them can do it themselves if all that there is, is a house or choose another solicitor.

In any case where a solicitor is executing a will the fees should be agreed up front.

It is not capital gains tax but inheritance tax but they should be well below the threashold for parent to child. Not sure on UK residents further liabilities.

First step is what does the will state, post on here and you will get some more correct advice.

 

[NOAH]

thanks all. The executor was the solicitor who now has the keys.

noah

 

[Madangan]

THe beneficiaries should meet with the solicitor. Have they attempted to so do?

By the way your idea of a non existent estate is most amusing! €26000 plus a house is non existent..really??

If I were the solicitor I would feel that a fee of €5000 to take out a grant of probate to such an estate is not all that unreasonable and a year is not all that long in certain circumstances. BTW did €5000 include vat or probate fees etc...

 

[NOAH]

Thanks for replies.

The beneficiaries only found by out by accident that step dad had died and they are scattered to the 4 winds. They are not in constant touch.

I have now found the keys with a solicitor who is in the same office as the executor of my sisters will was, who has since retired but apparently is still the executor of the will and responsible for drawing up deed of assent. I find that strange. What would happen if executor died?

To get house in children's names a "deed of assent" has to be drawn up and signed by the executor etc. The executor can stipulate who deals with the legal side and will no doubt recommend his own firm.

I got involved as the nephew was getting no replies to emails he was sending to the to the solicitors office of the executor using the website email address but addressed to the named executor in that office within the emai. lI rang office and enquired about non response and was advised the website email address was defunct ie they were not opened. Make what you will(oops) of that

I don't think any of the children are best pleased with this group of solicitors and want shot of them quickly. Incidentally they never met the executor, all done by letter.

I asked for a quote for drawing up assent form and sale of house and was given a very wishy washy reply ie no quote would be given.

The 4 children have very little money.

Can they get their own solicitor who will give a quote upfront and ask the executor to use them to draw up deed of assent?

And should the solicitors office have notified them when the keys were handed back last year? House has been empty since August 09. Solicitors were advised that stepdad had a terminal illness and was going back to uk to stay with family etc

noah

 

[Madangan]

Thanks for replies.

I have now found the keys with a solicitor who is in the same office as the executor of my sisters will was, who has since retired but apparently is still the executor of the will and responsible for drawing up deed of assent. I find that strange. What would happen if executor died?

Not strange.If executor had died a de bonis non grant would need to be taken out. There may have been any number of reasons why assent not done until life tenant died. If I were solicitor(and provided no other relevants facts exist) I would prob have done assent earlier but as we dont have all facts and as Executor not dead it is not a problem so move on

To get house in children's names a "deed of assent" has to be drawn up and signed by the executor etc. The executor can stipulate who deals with the legal side and will no doubt recommend his own firm.

Nothing wrong with that and as executor is now retired its not like he is getting anything out of this so again move on

I got involved as the nephew was getting no replies to emails he was sending to the to the solicitors office of the executor using the website email address but addressed to the named executor in that office within the emai. lI rang office and enquired about non response and was advised the website email address was defunct ie they were not opened. Make what you will(oops) of that

Move on

I don't think any of the children are best pleased with this group of solicitors and want shot of them quickly. Incidentally they never met the executor, all done by letter.

I asked for a quote for drawing up assent form and sale of house and was given a very wishy washy reply ie no quote would be given.

I have said move on to many matters as they are either irrelevant or of no major consequence and are distracting you and the beneficiaries from the important issues. This is the important one. They must give a written quote of likely fees to their client but the client is technically the executor! However in my opinion it is totally unreasonable ,when specifically asked by those who ultimately bear the cost i.e the beneficiaries,not to give a reasonably accurate estimate of fees now.

The 4 children have very little money.

Can they get their own solicitor who will give a quote upfront and ask the executor to use them to draw up deed of assent?

I would suggest that you get the beneficiaries to appoint you or one of them as the designated spokeman and then try to arrange a friendly meeting with executor in solicitors office so all matters can be discussed including time frame for work fees etc... Keeping it friendly is in your interest. If this is refused then at that point advise that you have been quoted a fee for the preparation of assent etc.. and say that if they cannot meet it then request executor to instruct another solicitor...worth a shot..but to be honestI dont see that the solicitor has done anything much wrong to date save that they may feel somewhat under attack and speaking from experience if I think I am going to be under constant fire from clents who dont know me I am not best inclined to give them the finest deal of all time..human nature

And should the solicitors office have notified them when the keys were handed back last year?

Not in my opinion as house only vests in them on death of stepfather!
House has been empty since August 09. Solicitors were advised that stepdad had a terminal illness and was going back to uk to stay with family etc

Man only died in December before the Christmas break so its not like the solicitors have been sitting twiddling their thumbs for months!!!

noah

 

[Bronte]

One person should be authorised to deal with this matter directly. It would be preferable to meet with the executor and try to get him to renounce his executorship if the beneficiaries do not get on with him. He does not have to do this.

That person should have a list of questions they might wish to pose to the executor, such as why the deed of assent was not completed, there may be a perfectly valid reason but they are surely entitled to know the reason. You could ask that question seperately on AAM for some ideas. Also in the previous fee when the mother died was the cost of this deed of assent included, if so it should not be included now ? Also they are entitled to know the fees, they should get the fees in writing. Wishy washy answers do not inspire confidence. But neither do people sending emails and not following through.

It is entirely possible that on a face to face meeting with the executor things can all be smoothed out and a proper working relationship established. The worse thing for everybody is that if each of the siblings try and deal with the executor seperately, it benefits nobody.

Incidentally from my reading on AAM it is unusual that a solicitor is appointed executor.

 

[Bronte]

but to be honestI dont see that the solicitor has done anything much wrong to date save that they may feel somewhat under attack and speaking from experience if I think I am going to be under constant fire from clents who dont know me I am not best inclined to give them the finest deal of all time..human nature


From a professional point of view should a solicitor renounce the executorship where they do not get on with the beneficiaries (under attack, constant fire, not inclined to give a good deal on fees) and where there is no real specific reason that the testator appointed the solicitor to be executor.

 

[Madangan]

A solicitor may feel that it is nt worth the hassle to deal with difficult clients..thats a matter for each solicitor to decide on in every specific case. In my experience it is often the case that when solicitors are asked to be the executors it may be because the Testator,while wanting his beneficiaries to benefit does not want one or other of them to be executor because there is likely to be difficulties and the testator wants a truly independent person to keep control over matters and to arbitrate.

My point about not being inclined to give a good deal on fees is simply that if I am dealing with an estate and the family members start giving me grief on day one (before I have even had a chance to mess up!!) then that does not augur well and while still charging a fair and reasonable fee I have no reason to give them the deal of the century and in fact as by now I am expecting to have a difficult job(as they appear to be difficult people it appears I will be spending more time not less on the case therfore I am even less inclined to reduce my fee.

In an ideal world I would never have to do work for difficult demanding clients but as I live in the real world and have to make a living and if I am a principal or partner have to make enough so that my support staff can also live then frequently I will have to keep work that I would happily pass onto others. But simply dont have the luxury!!
Solicitors are people too,People!

 

[NOAH]

A sincere thanks for the giving of your time with these replies. A meeting has been arranged with one of the beneficiaries and the solicitor. I may attend the first one and get everything on an even keel. With all the help on here we should get a win win outcome.

All suggestions will be acted upon.

noah