HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money??

[Protocol]

I read in the IT that Coovagh House in Limerick has 25 staff taking care of 2 disruptive children.

[broken link removed]

The centre was built to manage 5 children, but has never reached this figure.

Security costs are 680 per day.

Staff costs came to 1.2m for 9 months of 2009, that's 1.6m p.a.

Total running costs are 2m pa.

I think this is a huge waste of money.

What do the 25 staff do all day?

Some parents manage 4-6-8 children, why do the HSE need 25 staff for just 2?

Can we not imagine a better, cheaper way to care for or manage these disruptive children??

 

[Sunny]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

There are examples of this all over the place. There is a house in Dublin minding one troubled teen that costs over a €1m a year to run.

 

[Staples]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

Can we not imagine a better, cheaper way to care for or manage these disruptive children??

If you have a better, cheaper way, I'm sure the HSE would be glad to have it.

 

[jhegarty]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

If you have a better, cheaper way, I'm sure the HSE would be glad to have it.

Using 12 staff would be cheaper.

6 even cheaper again.

 

[becky]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

Using 12 staff would be cheaper.

6 even cheaper again.

They are I understand for children who are too young for prison so appropiately qualified and compentent staff are needed. The manager positions carry a salary of circa €65k.

The support staff are qualified social care workers and their salary is circa €45K. It's 24/7 care so rosters/annual leave has to be taken into account as well.

So it alls adds up.

 

[jhegarty]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

They are I understand for children who are too young for prison so appropiately qualified and compentent staff are needed. The manager positions carry a salary of circa €65k.

The support staff are qualified social care workers and their salary is circa €45K. It's 24/7 care so rosters/annual leave has to be taken into account as well.

So it alls adds up.

You can roster 24x7 with 6 people (allowing for holidays / sick leave).

Add a manager , that's 7. Way less than the 25 in use here.

 

[johnd]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

If those children had been looked after from an early age, like from birth, then maybe they wouldn't need to be in a special unit. If parents are unwilling or unable to look after their children then the state has to take over that role and spend the money when the children are young enough to benefit. Waiting until they are teenagers is too late.

 

[becky]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

You can roster 24x7 with 6 people (allowing for holidays / sick leave).

Add a manager , that's 7. Way less than the 25 in use here.

I presume they staffed it based on full occupancy and the managers (I think there is 3) would not be 'carers'.

So that leave 4.4 a week. Take 1.4 away for A/L and sick leave which leave 3 carers to look after up to 5 difficult clients.

I actually don't know much about the place but remember it getting getting a lot of media coverage locally. The problem back then was they could not get the staff to open it. How times have changed.

 

[becky]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

If those children had been looked after from an early age, like from birth, then maybe they wouldn't need to be in a special unit. If parents are unwilling or unable to look after their children then the state has to take over that role and spend the money when the children are young enough to benefit. Waiting until they are teenagers is too late.

My undertanding of these clients is that it is too late.

 

[MOB]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

You can roster 24x7 with 6 people (allowing for holidays / sick leave).

Add a manager , that's 7. Way less than the 25 in use here.

24 x 7 x 52 x 2 is 17,472 hours actual work time. This is on the optimistic assumption that you can get paperwork attended to during the time that you are supervising\monitoring your little darlings.

You absolutely need two people on at any given time. A challenged teen will almost certainly allege abuse if left alone with someone for any extended period. They do not appreciate the consequences; they think they can make an accusation as a bit of a power play and simply withdraw it before it goes too far; it happens quite a bit and the only protection is to ensure that such accusations cannot possibly be true - so being on your own with a child is to be avoided to the max extent possible.

37.5 x 46 weeks ( allowing for holiday, other absences and contingency) is 1,687.5 hours. So you need a minimum staff complement of 11 to staff a unit 24\7. And this involves VERY flexible staff - not always a given.

Bear in mind also that the unit is not a prison. Add in those times when a child has to be taken to extra-curricular activities or family visits. These will require that a third, and possibly a fourth staff member be on hand - two to accompany the troubled child, two to remain to man the unit. This might come to the equivalent of another 2-3 full time positions.

It is hard to see how the use of 25 people is justified; but managing these children is difficult and thankless work, and involves very significant resources.

The alternative is to have much larger centres for challenged kids and to reap some economies of scale from this. We tried this before and that didn't work too well either.....

 

[z104]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

The HSE need somebody to forensically investigate where money is being spent.

This is going beyond ridiculous.

 

[sidzer]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

I worked in a similar centre in Dublin although it wasn't fully secure and was amazed by the levels of staffing and waste that I witnessed.

A fully professionally staffed kitchen offered a choice of 3 different meals at lunch time for about 10 boys and many more staff. The food was excellent the hard part was picking what to go for. One day the boys decided to have a food fight and demanded to be taken to McDondalds for a change. A bit of bad behaviour was usually rewarded by a trip to Blanchardstown for a bit of shopping to get more of the latest sports gear.
A full time psychologist was available but the boys only went when they got cigarettes - a full time nurse was also employed for the ten residents as well as a large team of managers. The staff were either at a meeting or going to a meeting and money seemed to be available very freely. There was also swimming pool that was only used about once a week!

The place was falling down with highly qualified staff however about 3 14yr old boys were really running the centre.


Despite what I consider excessive spending and waste the work was stressful and there was a high turn over of staff. I know young people do need adequate care but if this is an exemple of how we do care centres I would have a number of concerns from a financial management perspective....

 

[Marion]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

Sidser:

From what you describe massive bullying is taking place and there is no clear management structure.

Management are weak and need to be replaced.

Marion

 

[Caveat]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

Well at the risk of going into a debate about the Publi...

C'mon though - seriously?! Are places like these ever audited or appraised/evaluated - whatever?

Surely more than the immediate management know what's going on and if not, why not?

 

[ajapale]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

Ive said it here before but I think its a big mistake to "ball" in a massive range of activity into the already unmanageable and highly disfunctional HSE.

Far better to set up a small agency (pejoratively known as quangos) with a clear mandate and focus. The activities of the agency should be audited annually and if it is not meeting is mandate or is costing too much or the reason for its existance is no longer there then it should be abolished and wound up.

Incidently I have no particular objection to the service being carried out by the private sector but such an agency would have to demonstrate an ability to do the job at least as well as a public service agency.

 

[Joody1]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

Where are parents of these children do they not have any responsibility for their offsprings. Having kids nowadays is a choice, therefore these children's parents should be taken to task for neglect.

There are lots of disable people and elderly people that this money could be spent on. Disability or age related illness is not a Choice unlike having children.

 

[mathepac]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

Where are parents of these children do they not have any responsibility for their offsprings. Having kids nowadays is a choice, therefore these children's parents should be taken to task for neglect...

I think your post misses the point. These children may be orphaned, abandoned, their parents imprisoned, hospitalised or committed to one institution or another and thus beyond further legal or financial sanction. Just to get the children into residence in one of these HSE units is a lengthy legal process.

Their children are undoubtedly in need of care, whether that care as delivered by the HSE is appropriate or cost effective is the debate; in my own personal experience it is neither.

I would have to agree with a lot of sidzer's comments above, particularly in relation to the children running the centres I have had contact with. There were no boundaries established for them and the attitude seemed to be to "give them (the children) what they want so that we (the management and staff) can have an easy life".

 

[gabsdot]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

if those children had been looked after from an early age, like from birth, then maybe they wouldn't need to be in a special unit. If parents are unwilling or unable to look after their children then the state has to take over that role and spend the money when the children are young enough to benefit. Waiting until they are teenagers is too late.

+1

 

[johnd]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

you can't send children back though can you! You are spectacularly missing the point.....

You're right! But you can put them up for adoption before they get to the stage when they need to be in a special unit. Bad parents should not breed. That's the point

 

[Complainer]

Re: HSE employ 25 people, spend 2m, caring for 2 disruptive children: waste of money?

Bad parents should not breed. That's the point

What would you suggest - a pre-coital parenting assessment to get your licence to breed?