Public Service Ding Dong Posts removed from other threads as "off topic"

[Latrade]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Re GPs handing out certs - I recall many years ago (when I was in the civil service myself) being told that there were a number of GPs whose medical certs would not be accepted because they were "too easy to get". I presume that this non-acceptance guideline is still possible if HR feel that certs from any GP are "too easily got".

From my own perspective, since I have to make an appointment to see my GP (and generally have to wait several days to get one), and pay €50 to get a cert, I don't go looking for certs at the drop of a hat!

This is a bit of a red herring to be honest. I'll accept I know of some dubious ones, but the employer has the right to get a second opinion.

In fairness to the PSCS, failure to manage absenteeism is not just a feature of them, a large part of the private sector fails to manage its absenteeism.

 

[csirl]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I get the same in the private sector and we don't suffer those levels of sick leave.

A very large multinational company I worked for a few years ago had a DAILY sick leave level of 11%. There were certain groups of staff who had their own sick leave rota - all would take 2 days uncertified sick leave once every two weeks. A lot of the management more or less turned a blind eye - they would get paid anyway regardless of whether or not they tackled the problem. Company was, and still is, profitable. As this was a very large multinational with 100s facilities across the globe, I'm assume that they got away with this behaviour because the top brass would never drill down as low as an individual facility and as long as it was profitable, they didnt care.

 

[Sunny]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

A very large multinational company I worked for a few years ago had a DAILY sick leave level of 11%. There were certain groups of staff who had their own sick leave rota - all would take 2 days uncertified sick leave once every two weeks. A lot of the management more or less turned a blind eye - they would get paid anyway regardless of whether or not they tackled the problem. Company was, and still is, profitable. As this was a very large multinational with 100s facilities across the globe, I'm assume that they got away with this behaviour because the top brass would never drill down as low as an individual facility and as long as it was profitable, they didnt care.

I already said earlier that abuse of sick leave happens in the private sector. I was simply pointing out that you can't blame good sick leave benefits for the ligh level of sick leave in the civil sector.

 

[Teatime]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

How does one advertise a senior job in one of the Unions? Something like this maybe:

The candidate must be completely unreasonable, ignorant and rude. He/She must be able to play a broken record over and over....

 

[csirl]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

How does one advertise a senior job in one of the Unions? Something like this maybe:

The candidate must be completely unreasonable, ignorant and rude. He/She must be able to play a broken record over and over....

and must have a beard.

 

[becky]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I already said earlier that abuse of sick leave happens in the private sector. I was simply pointing out that you can't blame good sick leave benefits for the ligh level of sick leave in the civil sector.

It's my opinion that it's one of the main reasons here, but I realise there are other factors.

I spoke to a colleague recently who has someone ring in with a toothache - I'm pretty sure if she didn't get paid for the day she would have taken a pain killer and come into work.

 

[Latrade]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I spoke to a colleague recently who has someone ring in with a toothache - I'm pretty sure if she didn't get paid for the day she would have taken a pain killer and come into work.

I'm sorry, but what's the manager doing condoning this? Uncertified sick leave still means you have to be sick and not in a fit condition to present yourself to work, you just don't have to have a registered medical doctor's certificate to confirm this.

Under very few circumstances would a toothache a valid sickness (beyond a very painful abssess. For the manager to accept this is where the crime is.

 

[liaconn]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I think maybe a breakaway thread should be set up entitled 'Public Sector sick leave'.

To go slightly back on point, I think the media will often extract juicy headlines from reports without providing any proper analysis. For instance, I know very few Public Servants who take an average of 16 sick days a year. I do, however, know of a small number of lazy, dishonest parasites who take far, far more than that every year. Therefore, the 'average' Public Servant is not taking 16 days sick leave annually, but 'a very small number' of Public Servants are taking vastly excessive amounts of sick days per annum.

Likewise, there are some very unscrupulous employers in the Private Sector who totally ignore their employees rights, treat migrant workers like dirt and bully vulnerable workers. In these cases the employees would not dare take sick leave unless they were at death's door. They are not 'average' private sector employees but they are skewing the figure downwards.

The use of the word 'average' is often used by the media to perpetuate myths.

 

[Latrade]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I think maybe a breakaway thread should be set up entitled 'Public Sector sick leave'.

To go slightly back on point, I think the media will often extract juicy headlines from reports without providing any proper analysis. For instance, I know very few Public Servants who take an average of 16 sick days a year. I do, however, know of a small number of lazy, dishonest parasites who take far, far more than that every year. Therefore, the 'average' Public Servant is not taking 16 days sick leave annually, but 'a very small number' of Public Servants are taking vastly excessive amounts of sick days per annum.

Likewise, there are some very unscrupulous employers in the Private Sector who totally ignore their employees rights, treat migrant workers like dirt and bully vulnerable workers. In these cases the employees would not dare take sick leave unless they were at death's door. They are not 'average' private sector employees but they are skewing the figure downwards.

The use of the word 'average' is often used by the media to perpetuate myths.

In fairness, that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation of the private sector and nothing to really support it. I know you're probably owed a couple of sweeping generalisations and unsubstantiated "facts", but I would be doubtful this is really the case.

I don't deny that some employers may behave so, but I really don't think it's enough to significantly skew averages to that extent. It really is the case that employees in the private sector take less sick leave.

 

[liaconn]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

In fairness, that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation of the private sector and nothing to really support it. I know you're probably owed a couple of sweeping generalisations and unsubstantiated "facts", but I would be doubtful this is really the case.

I don't deny that some employers may behave so, but I really don't think it's enough to significantly skew averages to that extent. It really is the case that employees in the private sector take less sick leave.

Believe me, because of the nature of my work I know what I am talking about and am not throwing out unsubstantiated 'facts'.

 

[boris]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

However, it's clear that there is a spread of "unqualified" leave in terms of who is taking advantage. But it points to a bigger issue relating to points raised in the defence of the PSCS. The C&AG has, in previous reports, been critical of the advances made in reform of the PSCS. While some departments have made strides others haven't.

On a small aside I quickly read through the C&AG's report last night and could not help but notice that they left themselves out of the analysis of sick leave. As far as I am aware they are part of the CS themselves (albeit with smaller numbers than most Gov. Dept's). They should have got outside expertise to analyse their element of the report so that it would have seemed impartial and complete.

 

[Latrade]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Believe me, because of the nature of my work I know what I am talking about and am not throwing out unsubstantiated 'facts'.

I've no doubt you do and have, however I would also say ditto from my perspective, except we arrive at different conclusions.

However, those employers who are so agressive can and do find themselves subject to unfair dismissal cases. So while sick pay isn't protected leave, there are standards companies must follow. And while in some sectors (say construction) may have had a, ahem, "stronger" attitude to sickness, it certainly isn't enough to state that it is either the case for the whole private sector or enough to cause such significant differences.

 

[becky]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I'm sorry, but what's the manager doing condoning this? Uncertified sick leave still means you have to be sick and not in a fit condition to present yourself to work, you just don't have to have a registered medical doctor's certificate to confirm this.

Under very few circumstances would a toothache a valid sickness (beyond a very painful abssess. For the manager to accept this is where the crime is.

Manager wasn't condoning it - far from it. The manager isn't in a position to tell an employee that a toothache is not acceptable reason to ring sick even though that's what he wanted to do.

 

[Latrade]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Manager wasn't condoning it - far from it. The manager isn't in a position to tell an employee that a toothache is not acceptable reason to ring sick even though that's what wanted to do.

Ok, I don't want to be too contrary on the issue and sympathise with the manager, but I'd still go back to a failing higher up. The manager should have been told and supported in the knowledge that this isn't a valid reason.

I'll admit the fact that a mini pandemic hits the PSCS every year is quite shocking, but it isn't just the employees, it's the managers and their managers who haven't dealt with it.

 

[Complainer]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Getting back to the OP one of the myths being spun by the media is classifying nearly everyone as being "the most vunerable in society"

Got any examples of this?

 

[liaconn]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I've no doubt you do and have, however I would also say ditto from my perspective, except we arrive at different conclusions.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. However, the point I was making is that 'averages' can very easily be skewed by outliers and are not indications of how a 'typical' person behaves.

 

[Latrade]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. However, the point I was making is that 'averages' can very easily be skewed by outliers and are not indications of how a 'typical' person behaves.

Oh absolutely, basic statistics and all that. And goes to explain why the average driver considers themselves a better driver than the average driver.

It's the extreme examples given that really need to be questioned, like 3 out of 4 employees in the State Labs taking sick leave. Though in fairness to the C&AG he does show those areas that are managing their absenteeism and record lower levels.

 

[z101]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Let's find out if Ceatharlach is a troll or not!

2 simple questions for you.

1. What 'facts' are you talking about?
You are never going to listen and because you disagree does not change how many reports that seem to tell any facts. Numerous people have pointed out actual facts on here. This is simply not getting through and I dont have the sick days you have to go back over all that again. BTW, The union leaflet that came through the doorbox today was nothing short of laughable and wont change much public perceptions.

2. How do you mean the media won't take the public service to "proper task" do you mean the media should get involved with govt affairs or do you mean the govt should get involved with media affairs?
The media are given sound bites from the Unions. They are afraid to boycotted by the PSU's. So by default they act in their interest instead of what is in Irelands interest and it's duty to be objective (Especially Tabloids). There are some notable exceptions namely Damien Kibert and Matt Cooper (but I guess you think they are PS bashers), Even Eddie Hobbs has had enough. RTE's core is PS regardless of their personalities having contracts.

Should be simple enough for you to answer.

Condesending... enjoy the sick days.. or is that not a fact either.

 

[Pique318]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

Eg fail to mention that when you join the PS you are obligued to take their pension whether you want it or not.

2) ...Those who get no public sector pension pay the levy.

I'm sorry, but I can't reconcile these two statements

...it is very rare for civil servants to get overtime.

Maybe it is now, but in the past it wasn't in my experience. I worked in the CS for 3 years in the 90s and it was common practice to leave certain correspondence in boxes (on the back burner, in essence) until the period before Christmas, St. Patricks day, Easter, June, August & Hallowe'en, and then use it as an excuse to get overtime. This was authorised by HEOs and obviously APs. COs SOs & EOs would be involved in the OT.

Also, regarding the Flexitime thing. It was quite common for people to sit around chatting from about 5/5.30 till 6.29 (time clocks worked until 6.30) and then clock out, thus maximising the time worked up. 10.5 hours (or a day & a half) per 4wk period. 19.5 extra days off for catching up on gossip.

IMHO unions are now basically a club for slackers, lets all band together and no-one will question our performance or cosy terms. If people had faith in their own abilities they wouldnt need a union, they'd rise to the top and natural selection would see the wasters at the back of the pack getting culled, and the herd as a whole would be better

Totally agree

Doctors handing out certs like confetti are part of the problem. It still doesn't explain why certified sick leave is still higher than in the civil service than the private sector. The private sector can't be that much healthier.

Maybe the inane boredom of repetitive unchallenging work has something to do with it...

You are also allowed 2 days uncertfied before you have to produce a cert.

Ditto, but every company I've worked in in the Private Sector (and those my friends have worked in use a formula like [#days off] x [occasions (squared)]. This gives the Bradford Score. so 5 x 1 day absences = 125. but 1 x 5 day absence = 5. I think most places used to have a limit of 65 or so. Anything above that resulted in a talking to. Anything over 100 probably resulted in a reduced payrise (if approved based on profits, obviously) or even disciplinary action in extreme cases.

 

[Complainer]

Re: Media "myths" that get on your nerves

I'm sorry, but I can't reconcile these two statements

Low-paid public sector staff who's pension entitlement comes out below the standard old-age pension get no occupational pension, just the standard OAP. So they paid pension deductions all their working life and now they pay the pension levy, and they get nothing for it.