Bad debts - accepting personal responsibility

H

Howitzer

Registered User
Messages
1,458
"I will hold my hands up and admit I went slightly over the limit and I missed four payments, but I cleared the €3,200 arrears.
"And now, all because of MBNA, I have lost the apartment," he said.
Click to expand...

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/credit-card-company-ruined-my-dream-of-buying-a-home-1922516.html

Guy misses payments on credit card.

CC company passes this information on to the ICB.

Guy can't subsequently get mortgage - it's the CC company's fault.

What have I missed? This is someone who has in the last couple of years lost a job and as a result defaulted on debt repayments. This person has a higher risk rating associated with them and any bank should take this into account when judging whether to loan them a substantial sum of money. They withdrew the mortgage because he didn't disclose this information to them in his application, they found out through his ICB report.

Mr Behan is also angry that he was unable to get a payout on payment protection insurance he had as part of his credit card when his employment contract was not renewed.
Click to expand...
He wasn't sacked - he only had a temporary position. So now it's the insurance companies fault.
He is annoyed that the credit card company has refused to remove his name from the records of the Irish Credit Bureau, despite repeated requests.
Click to expand...
He missed debts repayments - that's what the ICB is there to record. It's the ICB's fault.

This story says it all for me. Entitlement. Casually running up debts. Not accepting personal reponsibilty. Looking for someone else to blame. Obsession with buying property.
 
Why didn't he just make the minimum payment - it's usually miniscule compared to the actual debt.
 
You're right, but it's not his fault either. It's Bertie's, the banks and the developers. I thought that was well established by now and as a result the courts should write off all the debts we ran up during that time.
 
Did anyone hear the taxi driver on Gerry Ryan.

He had €3K he wanted to use to reduce his 8K credit card bill. He the wanted to have €500 available to him for emergencies. The CC company were not interested in the arrangment so he only gave them €300. None of this made any sense to me. Why did he not just give the cc company €2,500 and put €500 into another account.

This guy was also in arrears with his mortage.
 
becky said:
Did anyone hear the taxi driver on Gerry Ryan.

He had €3K he wanted to use to reduce his 8K credit card bill. He the wanted to have €500 available to him for emergencies. The CC company were not interested in the arrangment so he only gave them €300. None of this made any sense to me. Why did he not just give the cc company €2,500 and put €500 into another account.

This guy was also in arrears with his mortage.
Click to expand...

I did actually hear this guy and have to say compared to the girl before him he really didn't make a good case for himself! . Especially went he went on about how 'non bleedin nationals' are ringing him & he can't even understand them! I think realistically speaking everybody should accept their personal debt & shouldn't try to blame anybody and try to get out of it. As far as I am concerned if you spent it then you have to pay it back!. That said, a lot of people were really caught off guard by losing jobs when they assumed their job was safe, i know a hell of a lot of people in this boat!. Therefore as long as people are making regular payments (no matter how small) and staying in contact with the banks and not trying to get out of the debt, they should be given some leeway! They certainly shouldn't be subject to harassment by banks/cc companies. Also, for a large number of people especially those with kids, the minimum payment isn't always possible & if you miss one month it can be really hard to catch up again. Bottom line is accept responsibility and deal with the debt as much as you can, even making tiny regular payments if that is all you can afford.
 
I agree with new001. We have to differentiate between those who were reckless and will use any excuse not to repay and those who thru no fault of their own are in dire circumstances. There is also the fact that credit was given out willy nilly and the banks and credit cards have a lot of responsibility here. People who cannot handle a credit card should be banned from having them for say 5 years until they cop on. There's a problem here on AAM with working out who deserves help and who are chancers. We've seen some suicidal people on here and personally I don't understand how people have managed to have so much debt, it's quite unbelievable in some of the cases but it's like Ireland has gone mad on credit. Does nobody save anymore, why do people buy things they can't afford especially holidays/TV's/cars. It's quite striking that the people in debt are sometimes those with the biggest car loans and the massive flat screen TV's and 4 holidays in the past year. That may be a generalisation but that's the impression I'm getting.
 
Last edited:
There have been one or two recent posts on this forum with the attitude that debt they have willingly and knowingly incurred which doesn't suit them is something they want to renege on (in both of the cases that particularly struck me it was irrespective of affordability). It is an almost childish lack of self-respect and responsibility. It is appalling that people can really be so selfish and short-sighted that they think walking away from their own promises is the best thing all around. And then expect other people to agree with them!

Access to credit is a basic requirement for the type of society we live in. This access is damaged in the long term by profligacy, foolishness and sheer old-fashioned selfishness. All of these work against the element of trust which is fundamental to all loan agreements. Lending institutions trust their debtors to repay and we trust the lending institutions to safeguard our financial assets. The first fault was I think with the banks, they became profligate with the money we entrusted to them, the backlash of this has been that lending criteria have become more difficult to satisfy thus limiting access to credit. The second fault is with the loan defaulters who judge repayment as an optional extra at their discretion. This foolishness and selfishness on their part further aggravates the hardening of the lenders attitude to borrowers. Together these have destroyed trust and as a result have caused the flow of money around the systems of this country and this world to slacken considerably. Of course it is more complicated than that but fundamentally what has been lost is trust at every level and an irresponsible, selfish borrowing population who do not acknowledge their own responsiblities in this are a huge part of the problem. Quite aggravating!

Those who have found in recent times that debt has now become a burden they can't afford yet who continue to strive to repay it as best they can are to be admired in my book. They are in very difficult circumstances and yet they continue to try. That lending institutions are not always amenable to their efforts is quite despicable. Far too often though, the debt has been incurred quite unnecessarily. People have borrowed in preference to saving towards something. People have borrowed simply because they could. While the advertising practices of all lending institutions have blatantly encouraged this, it does not absolve the debtor from taking the ostensibly quick and easy cash instead of prudently saving towards an expense. We need to re-learn that debt should be treated more as a last resort than a first.
 
+1.

There are people who didn't go mad during the boom, lived within their means and now, through no fault of their own, are struggling to pay their mortgage and bills and they deserve to be treated with sympathy and compassion.

But, there are also people who went absolutely mad and couldn't wait to spend money - putting exotic holidays on their credit card, refurnishing the house every year, buying big show offy cars on huge loans, kitting their children out in designer gear and generally living like millionaires, but all on borrowed money. Many of these people now seem to be bracketing themselves with the unfortunates above and seem to think they should just have all their loans written off and presumably paid for, indirectly, by other people. I feel very sorry for anyone who's in serious financial trouble at the moment, but some people really did bring it on themselves.
 
+1 So-crates.

This goes deeper than the actions of the banks. First we wanted more competition in the finance sector and we got it, credit got a whole lot easier.

I hate to use myself as any kind of example, heaven knows I'm not totally perfect (near as damn it though). But I had the banks offering me stupid loans. When I went for a mortgage I was told I could double it if I wanted, I was offered additional money "just get the place done up" etc, etc, etc. I didn't take it.

Now we didn't do without and we're not sitting on carboard boxes, but we saved for everything we needed. It took longer to finish the place, but in the end we had no debt and had adjusted to the not having access to the money we were saving.

I still get the nice telly/blu ray/computer, etc, I just accrue for it.

If people lived beyond their means that's not mine, the banks or the government's fault. There was plenty of information on the worrying debt levels. I'd also be fairly sure that the debt people ran up wasn't exactly for essential items, they were for luxury items (hence high end retailers really suffering). It wasn't spending on a need basis, it was spending on an "I want" basis.

And just to complete my transformation into Kevin Myers, this issue of TV licences. Should we feel sorry for these people jailed or taken to court for not paying? Maybe, but I doubt the had an old black and white portable TV with a coat hanger in the back. They could afford the sky subscription, the could afford the big TV, the games machines, the dvd player, so why not a TV licence.

If you're struggling so much you can't afford a TV licence, then don't have a TV!
 
liaconn said:
But, there are also people who went absolutely mad and couldn't wait to spend money - putting exotic holidays on their credit card, refurnishing the house every year, buying big show offy cars on huge loans, kitting their children out in designer gear and generally living like millionaires, but all on borrowed money.
Click to expand...

What annoys me is the attitude of 'its the banks fault, they shouldnt have lent me the money if i couldnt pay it back'. People took out mad loans and assumed that if the back was willing to lend them the money then that was a green light to the loans affordability.

But the myth is perpetuated onwards even in these times. I personally know a girl who has a number of different loans/debts. Contacted her bank to discuss consolidating them. Bank brought her in, sat her down and looked at the figures. Guy says to her 'this loan should never have been approved based on these figures, neither should this overdraft facility'.

So she comes away thinking - its the banks fault.
 
I know. The banks behaved irresponsibly, there's no doubt, but it was a two way street. I remember when I was in the throes of buying an apartment and doing all the usual - bringing sandwiches to work, accepting I wouldn't be able to have a proper holiday for a few years etc, in order to be able to afford the mortgage, and in the middle of it all my bank rang me several times to ask me if I would like a loan of a few grand to buy myself something nice!

I just said 'no'. It was as simple as that.
 
liaconn said:
I know. The banks behaved irresponsibly, there's no doubt, but it was a two way street. I remember when I was in the throes of buying an apartment and doing all the usual - bringing sandwiches to work, accepting I wouldn't be able to have a proper holiday for a few years etc, in order to be able to afford the mortgage, and in the middle of it all my bank rang me several times to ask me if I would like a loan of a few grand to buy myself something nice!

I just said 'no'. It was as simple as that.
Click to expand...

They should teach children in schools that just because someone offers you money, that does NOT make it a good reason to take it.
 
It certainly seems to me that there are people in this country who want to be treated like adults when it comes to borrowing and children when it comes to paying.
 
so-crates said:
The trouble with that lesson is it can by countermanded by example at home.
Click to expand...

This part of what I didn't get. Even as a child during the 80s I remember how bad things were, but I saw a whole generation of people who were unemployed or had it bad during that time who still lost the run of themselves during the boom. How could they not have had some caution or even paranoia about a return having lived through the worst of it before?
 
Latrade said:
This part of what I didn't get. Even as a child during the 80s I remember how bad things were, but I saw a whole generation of people who were unemployed or had it bad during that time who still lost the run of themselves during the boom. How could they not have had some caution or even paranoia about a return having lived through the worst of it before?
Click to expand...

I think some people just got caught up in the madness and threw caution to the wind. Other people were desperate to keep up with the joneses. And I think some people were delighted to be able to give their kids a lifestyle they themselves had never had.

Also, I think overspending just got 'normalised' in a strange way. People didn't see anything strange about putting their names on a waiting list for €5,000 handbags, buying cars the size of minibuses to transport their two kids around the place, forking out €200 for a restaurant meal and so on. Some people remained clear eyed about all this, others just got carried away. Unfortunately, they're now paying the price.
 
The media also helped out the greed culture.
People watched their tv or read magazines with talentless nobodies like Karry Katona or Jade Goody (sorry not speaking ill of the dead, just using an example) becoming famous for no other reason than the culture of postmodern celebrity and it suddenly seemed that the ordinary skanger could access Gucci handbags and have their fake nails done and they too could open the door to the lifestyle of SUVs, expensive holidays and big houses, all to be paid for later....later...later.....
 
truthseeker said:
The media also helped out the greed culture.
People watched their tv or read magazines with talentless nobodies like Karry Katona or Jade Goody (sorry not speaking ill of the dead, just using an example) becoming famous for no other reason than the culture of postmodern celebrity and it suddenly seemed that the ordinary skanger could access Gucci handbags and have their fake nails done and they too could open the door to the lifestyle of SUVs, expensive holidays and big houses, all to be paid for later....later...later.....
Click to expand...

While I find the celebrity or WAG culture vacuous and vulgar, I wouldn't blame the media in this case and certainly don't think it only relates to skangers.

If people are unable to associate between their means and what they can afford to have and those of the celebrities (no matter how "justified" or hard earned their wealth), it's not the media's fault.

And Celebrity culture isn't new, it's been around for as long as people have had access to the media. There have always been people who are famous for being famous, socialites, etc. We've always had an obsession with how they live and the luxuries they can afford.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top