John Hayes' Red Card

[DavyJones]

I was talking to a Munster supporter yesterday about the match and he said that Leinster players and fans cannot ever be a passionate about their team because rugby in Munster was a working class game and it was a upper/middle class game in Leinster. When I asked him if that meant just because a person was from a well off background they could never be a passionate about a game as a person from a poor background he said yes.
I was raised to judge people based on what I found, not on where they were from or what accent they had (or what race or religion they were) so to me that’s the worst kind of BS inverted snobbery.

What do the Munster fans here think?

Really finding this kind of sterotyping tiresome, it's the same everywhere in Ireland, if your a young lad good at rugby, the top rugby schools take you. these are normally fee paying schools. Alot of the snobbery is connected to this even if it happens outside Dublin.

Because a person is wealthy is no way to measure his love for his sport and likewise for us poor Munster folk .

Irish rugby has changed alot over the last few years and will continue to change. For example, i was at Thomond recently and there were a couple of couples infront of me, they were all dressed in the new Munster kit, they spent more time chatting than watching the game, when quiet was called for, one of the ladies said "oh, I hate when people ssshh me" God above. It's nearly like it is cool to say you were at a match even if you didn't watch it.

Also in the RDS the other night, the chants of Easy Easy (even when it was so painfully easy) are not what the game I grew up with is about. There are lemons on both sides, It's getting hard to avoid them.

 

[baldyman27]

I was talking to a Munster supporter yesterday about the match and he said that Leinster players and fans cannot ever be a passionate about their team because rugby in Munster was a working class game and it was a upper/middle class game in Leinster. When I asked him if that meant just because a person was from a well off background they could never be a passionate about a game as a person from a poor background he said yes.
I was raised to judge people based on what I found, not on where they were from or what accent they had (or what race or religion they were) so to me that’s the worst kind of BS inverted snobbery.

What do the Munster fans here think?

Its complete and utter BS, as you say. Thing is, both camps have a huge bandwagon support. I could even be classed as being among them having come from a GAA background I only discovered rugby and Munster while in college in Limerick. That was pre the heady days though. The amount of idiots going to games now is ridiculous. People who haven't a bull's notion about the game itself. What I'd compare it to is the bandwagon following that English Premiership soccer teams have acquired and this was never more evident than at Croker for the semi last season - remember the chants? It was Leinster fans on that occasion, albeit a minority, but it could have easily been Munster from what I've seen.

There is an argument for less well-off people being more fervent fans of any sport. Wealthier people don't have the same level of tedium and hardship in their everday lives. A sweeping generalisation, I know, but fundamentally true. As such, anything that can be latched onto that might lift the spirits and give a positive focus will be fanatically supported. This would have been traditionally the case with regard to Munster and Leinster as pre-professionalism and pre-Celtic Tiger (which occurred at roughly the same time) Munster was typified mainly by the working-class (dare I say problem) areas of Limerick, versus the salubrious areas of Dublin. Of course this has all changed drastically in the intervening years and the game is now accessible to all, though there are some who live in the past and are narrow-minded. I've encountered them on both sides.

As a Munster supporter, i feel a connection to the players because they are literally among us. It's not uncommon to meet any of them on a night out in town during the off-season or to waddle my fat little way up to the driving range and find one of the lads next to you hacking away. They are always friendly and willing to have a chat I have found, apart from ROG who's a pretentious git but I digress. This, naturally, makes it easier to roar on your team for a game. I don't know if the same can be said of the Leinster players. That said, Dublin and the commuter towns being so large would make it a lot more difficult to bump into any of them. Cork and Limerick are very local.

Christ, what an essay!

 

[DavyJones]

As a Munster supporter, i feel a connection to the players because they are literally among us. It's not uncommon to meet any of them on a night out in town during the off-season or to waddle my fat little way up to the driving range and find one of the lads next to you hacking away. They are always friendly and willing to have a chat I have found, apart from ROG who's a pretentious git but I digress. This, naturally, makes it easier to roar on your team for a game. I don't know if the same can be said of the Leinster players. That said, Dublin and the commuter towns being so large would make it a lot more difficult to bump into any of them. Cork and Limerick are very local.

Christ, what an essay!

I would agree with that, I have often drank beside Lions and international players in Limerick and nobody bats an eyelid. I have met ROG a few times and found him to have a dry humour, i like him, My brother dislikes him alot so I can see where you are coming from. Although I suspect he gets alot a hassle when out, he did on one of the nights I was there.

 

[demoivre]

I live in south Leinster and what amazes me is the amount of locals down here who support Munster !

 

[Mpsox]

I was talking to a Munster supporter yesterday about the match and he said that Leinster players and fans cannot ever be a passionate about their team because rugby in Munster was a working class game and it was a upper/middle class game in Leinster. When I asked him if that meant just because a person was from a well off background they could never be a passionate about a game as a person from a poor background he said yes.
I was raised to judge people based on what I found, not on where they were from or what accent they had (or what race or religion they were) so to me that’s the worst kind of BS inverted snobbery.

What do the Munster fans here think?

I'm from a working class Munster background and married to someone from a working class rural Leinster background who is pretty passionate about her rugby. However there is some merit in what the Munster guy was saying historically. The majority of Leinster senior clubs used to be assiocated with various private schools and certainly when I played (not that long ago I might add), you'd see far more GAA "boggers" togging out for a rugby team in Limerick then you would in D4. Mick Galway is the classic example.

That is changing but has a long way to go. I'm not really sure how relevant Leinster rugby is to the majority of people who live in Westmeath or South Wexford, I do think Munster has more of a connection across the provence then is the case in Leinster.

 

[Purple]

I'm from a working class Munster background and married to someone from a working class rural Leinster background who is pretty passionate about her rugby. However there is some merit in what the Munster guy was saying historically. The majority of Leinster senior clubs used to be assiocated with various private schools and certainly when I played (not that long ago I might add), you'd see far more GAA "boggers" togging out for a rugby team in Limerick then you would in D4. Mick Galway is the classic example.

That is changing but has a long way to go. I'm not really sure how relevant Leinster rugby is to the majority of people who live in Westmeath or South Wexford, I do think Munster has more of a connection across the provence then is the case in Leinster.

The point he was making was that by definition someone who is from a well off background cannot be as passionate about a sport as someone from a poor background. He was not arguing that it was generally the case, but that it was always the case.

 

[Luckycharm]

Really finding this kind of sterotyping tiresome, it's the same everywhere in Ireland, if your a young lad good at rugby, the top rugby schools take you. these are normally fee paying schools. Alot of the snobbery is connected to this even if it happens outside Dublin.

Because a person is wealthy is no way to measure his love for his sport and likewise for us poor Munster folk .

Irish rugby has changed alot over the last few years and will continue to change. For example, i was at Thomond recently and there were a couple of couples infront of me, they were all dressed in the new Munster kit, they spent more time chatting than watching the game, when quiet was called for, one of the ladies said "oh, I hate when people ssshh me" God above. It's nearly like it is cool to say you were at a match even if you didn't watch it.

Also in the RDS the other night, the chants of Easy Easy (even when it was so painfully easy) are not what the game I grew up with is about. There are lemons on both sides, It's getting hard to avoid them.

I was at the Semi in 06 in Lansdowne when we were at the end of a whopping and heard lots of calls of Easy Easy coming from the Munster support when Halstead scored - so please no more of this holier then thou attitude from the Munster fans- never minds how chirpy alot of munster fans were to the Leinster fans on the walk to the HEC semi last may.

I have been following Leinster/club rugby since I was child - 30 odd years and some of the rubbish I have heard about Leinster fans. There are one of 2 clubs in Dublin which are definetly Snobby etc but then again they are not really liked in Dublin either. Then again there are similar clubs in Munster/Limerick which are just as Snobby- garryowen anyone?

Leinster clubs have always welcomed players from whereever- for example that Outhalf who played for Munster that day when you beat the All blacks where exactly was he raised and schooled?

Munster fans seem to quickly forget the 2001 celtic league final when 14 man leinster showed enough passion to come back against a full Munster team!!

One thing as my dad pointed out last Friday alot of the fans on both sides have probally never been to an AIL game.

 

[Betsy Og]

You'd have to say that there's an awful lot of tosh talked about the Munster 'working class' thing. For starters I'd say a good half of the crowd are GAA people by origin in terms of where they live, what they played themselves, what their Da played .....

Focussing on the specifics of those who are rugby-by-birth, in Limerick you have schools like Munchins, Crescent & lately Castletroy, all salubrious enough type establishments and areas. Similarly in terms of clubs you have Garryowen and Cresent, UL Bohs, nothing much working class about them either.

Now I'm not denying there's a fair working class crowd too with clubs like Young Munster, Thomond (not sure where Shannon fit in) but I'd say overall if, of the rugby-by-birth crowd, it was 50% working class 50% well off that would be the height of it. Would be true to say that soccer is bigger than rugby in Limerick's working class areas?, maybe maybe not but I'd guess its fairly close run and the notion that working class Limerick is 100% rugby is wider of the mark.

Rugby in Cork is, to my knowledge, as "D4" as it is in Leinster.

So, by my rough calc, only 25% of the Munster crowd is rugby-by-birth working class.

I support Munster, occasionally, as its where I'm from and I've liked their style and many of the players of the past 10 years or so. But I have to say the fans do talk a fair bit of crap at the best of times.

 

[baldyman27]

For example, i was at Thomond recently and there were a couple of couples infront of me, they were all dressed in the new Munster kit, they spent more time chatting than watching the game, when quiet was called for, one of the ladies said "oh, I hate when people ssshh me" God above. It's nearly like it is cool to say you were at a match even if you didn't watch it.

Also in the RDS the other night, the chants of Easy Easy (even when it was so painfully easy) are not what the game I grew up with is about. There are lemons on both sides, It's getting hard to avoid them.

I was at the Semi in 06 in Lansdowne when we were at the end of a whopping and heard lots of calls of Easy Easy coming from the Munster support when Halstead scored - so please no more of this holier then thou attitude from the Munster fans- never minds how chirpy alot of munster fans were to the Leinster fans on the walk to the HEC semi last may.

I have been following Leinster/club rugby since I was child - 30 odd years and some of the rubbish I have heard about Leinster fans. There are one of 2 clubs in Dublin which are definetly Snobby etc but then again they are not really liked in Dublin either. Then again there are similar clubs in Munster/Limerick which are just as Snobby- garryowen anyone?

Leinster clubs have always welcomed players from whereever- for example that Outhalf who played for Munster that day when you beat the All blacks where exactly was he raised and schooled?

Munster fans seem to quickly forget the 2001 celtic league final when 14 man leinster showed enough passion to come back against a full Munster team!!

One thing as my dad pointed out last Friday alot of the fans on both sides have probally never been to an AIL game.

May I just point out that Davy's post was balanced in that he criticised both sets of fans? Also, I think you will find on reading the thread that no one thus far has been blindly oblivious to the antics of their own set of supporters. Sweeping generalisations are the root of some of the angst, you are participating in the same.

 

[mathepac]

... but what shocked me to the core was the incident that resulted in John Hayes being dismissed...

Just to point out to some posters above that at no stage did I attribute blame to John Hayes. The dismissal happened after the touch-judge intervened and discussed what he saw with the ref. I had no clear view of who did what based on the high-lights I saw on BBC2 or the link above.

... If what I saw is accurate then it was a deliberate, savage and cowardly attack on a helpless player and could mean an ignominious end to what has been an exemplary disciplinary career ...

Having reviewed the incident again it looks to me as if two different boots made contact with Healy's head / face or someone had a second go at him. I can't see whose boot went where in the link above and the BBC showed only the feet and Healy's head so bodies and feet can't be connected.

If I'm right then either the wrong player got the red card (which is what I believe) or two players should have been sent off.

... Bad stamp by Hayes - he definitely was not going for the face ...

Fair play you obviously had a better view of the incident than me and you also seem to have insight into the intention and the target that I lack - how is that?

Stamping is OK, just not on a guy's face, is that what you mean?

 

[DavyJones]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTJt1e6k-M4&feature=player_embedded

Heres the incident, the other player is POC, he is raking though and not stamping, Hayes clearly is stamping. Of all the players, you'd never expect it from the Bull.

 

[mathepac]

I still can't make it out clearly enough to be satisfied in my own mind.

... Of all the players, you'd never expect it from the Bull.

I agree. He'll crush you, squash you, break you in two with a tackle, turn you into an s-hook in the scrum (on a good day), throw you to one side like a terrier with a rat, you'll visit your family in Oz in the ruck, and learn to sprint backwards in the maul, all legally, but I can't ever remember an incident like this. He's given away loads of penalties but they've been for technical stuff rather not thuggery.

 

[MrMan]

I was at the Semi in 06 in Lansdowne when we were at the end of a whopping and heard lots of calls of Easy Easy coming from the Munster support when Halstead scored - so please no more of this holier then thou attitude from the Munster fans- never minds how chirpy alot of munster fans were to the Leinster fans on the walk to the HEC semi last may.
I wouldn't mind your response except you even highlighted what Davy said and still took it up wrong.

I have been following Leinster/club rugby since I was child - 30 odd years and some of the rubbish I have heard about Leinster fans. There are one of 2 clubs in Dublin which are definetly Snobby etc but then again they are not really liked in Dublin either. Then again there are similar clubs in Munster/Limerick which are just as Snobby- garryowen anyone?

Leinster clubs have always welcomed players from whereever- for example that Outhalf who played for Munster that day when you beat the All blacks where exactly was he raised and schooled?

Munster fans seem to quickly forget the 2001 celtic league final when 14 man leinster showed enough passion to come back against a full Munster team!!

One thing as my dad pointed out last Friday alot of the fans on both sides have probally never been to an AIL game.
Alot of fans are new to the game and that can only be good for rugby. People like me who don't have a local team or even a team in their county like what munster gives us. Its similar to supporting your national side. People can be very precious about the game, but it is just a sport after all and is there to be enjoyed.

 

[DavyJones]

Hayes gets a six week ban.

[broken link removed]

 

[Caveat]

The point he was making was that by definition someone who is from a well off background cannot be as passionate about a sport as someone from a poor background. He was not arguing that it was generally the case, but that it was always the case.

Different types of passion maybe - informed by the socio-economic & cultural background in the first place?

E.g. Arguably, many so called middle class supporters may be more reserved or self conscious when it comes to displays of support/camaraderie etc?

 

[Purple]

Different types of passion maybe - informed by the socio-economic & cultural background in the first place?

E.g. Arguably, many so called middle class supporters may be more reserved or self conscious when it comes to displays of support/camaraderie etc?

Maybe, but all of them? In every case?

 

[Caveat]

Maybe, but all of them? In every case?

No, not all - I'm just suggesting the personality type as a reason why your friend might have come to his sweeping conclusion.

Of course certain sports have always tended to have class associations - I think your man might have a bit of a chip on his shoulder with the rugby thing.

 

[MrMan]

No, not all - I'm just suggesting the personality type as a reason why your friend might have come to his sweeping conclusion.

Of course certain sports have always tended to have class associations - I think your man might have a bit of a chip on his shoulder with the rugby thing.

Or more likely he made a general sweeping statement as people tend to do in casual talk. People tend to say things and never have to back them up because a pinch of salt is generally required with chat about sport.

 

[Luckycharm]

Different types of passion maybe - informed by the socio-economic & cultural background in the first place?

E.g. Arguably, many so called middle class supporters may be more reserved or self conscious when it comes to displays of support/camaraderie etc?[/quote]

That is completely rubbish - each person is different no matter what background they come from. People have tended to forget the Province that probally had the biggest support first was Ulster they always used to have the biggest average attendance plus how many came down for their final in 99.

 

[Caveat]

So you are saying that everyone is a complete individual and does not conform in any way to notions of any social groupings or behaviour?

I'd say over 150 years of sociology might disagree.

(Don't know what Ulster has to do with anything BTW)