Do you see the union jack as being an english flag?

csirl said:
There shouldnt be any Scottish or Welsh teams allowed in National team competitions as they are not countries. Its a bid sad really the way that they go on with this pretence that they are independent countries just because a quirk in sporting history allows them to field soccer and rugby teams.
Click to expand...

Is the Republic of Ireland a country? Or is it a state which includes part of a country?

If so, and using your logic, should the Republic of Ireland be allowed to participate in soccer events? Should it be disqualified as it is not a country?

If not, should the Irish rugby team be allowed to participate because it takes in two countries.

Using your logic, either the soccer or rugby team should be given the chop.

Or should we all just lighten up and let people who enjoy playing sports play instead of being keyboard wizards, saying teams should be banned from the comfort of our offices.
 
Is the Republic of Ireland a country? Or is it a state which includes part of a country?
Click to expand...

There is no such country as the "Republic of Ireland" and there is no soccer team fielded by the "Republic of Ireland".

"Ireland" is a State and fields a soccer team in FIFA competitions (officially called "Ireland" - "ROI" is a British media invention). "Ireland" is officially recognised as a sovereign State, has international relations and embassies, issues passports, is a member of the UN & EU etc.

I've actually done some work for a national sporting body, so I'm very familiar with the legal status of internationally fielded teams. While it is not widely advertised, for obvious political reasons, all teams that represent "Ireland" in International competition officially represent the 26 counties even if the sport is an all-Ireland organisation. [I remember being at one meeting where a high ranking official mentioned that "multinational" international teams are not allowed when asked about the prospect of an all-Ireland team].

People in Northern Ireland are generally eligible to play for Ireland as they are eligible for an Irish passport. The vast majority of International sporting organisations, including the IOC, use passport eligibility to determine nationality. The individual athlete doesnt have to travel on or even possess an Irish passport, but must prove eligibility for one.

A lot of Northern Irish athletes from a unionist background who represent Ireland actually take out Irish passports, but don't use them on a day to day basis. Some never even keep them in their possession - pick them up in person (so as to avoid letter with harp going thru NI postal system) and hand them to their sports governing body who retain them for safe keeping. Some International sports organisations, by agreement, will also allow NI athletes just to prove eligibility without having to take out the passport - documentation required varies from sport to sport and some still insist on passport only.
 
So, given the above, do you believe that as there is no such country as "Republic of Ireland", in your words, the current Republic of Ireland soccer team should not exist, just like the Welsh and Scottish?

I knew what you were saying in previous posts would make either the soccer or rugby team invalid in your opinion.

But I just wanted to clear up which one.
 
Both the soccer and rugby teams are valid - they both represent "Ireland" which is a sovereign internationally recognised country.

There can be no "Republic of Ireland" soccer team as there no country in existance in the world called "Republic of Ireland". The soccer team managed by Trappatoni is fielded by the "Football Assocation of Ireland" and represents Ireland.

I'm affraid FIFA's webmaster is wrong on this one - check with the official FIFA documentation and legal department and the FAI and the IOC and they'll confirm exactly what I've said.

While it's not politically correct for the IRFU to come out and say it as a large proportion of their membership is unionist, the reality is that they do represent Ireland and when rugby sevens is played in the London Olympics, the only people who will be allowed to play for Ireland will be those who are eligible for an Irish passport. [Incidently, there will be no Scottish or Welsh teams in the Olympic rugby - just a UK one].
 
csirl said:
"Ireland" is officially recognised as a sovereign State.
Click to expand...

This is the crux in the Scotland, Wales, etc debate. First, there is no common agreement on what qualifies one "nation" (what defines a nation?) being a sovereign state and not. As we know, some "nations" do not recognise some others as "sovereign states". As you would expect, there was some attempt to reach a common agreement on what defines a sovereign state, but not everyone agreed, so it was left as it was.

But, while "country" and "sovereign state" tend to be used interchangeably, it's a bit like continuous and continual. Just because many confuse the two, doesn't make it right. Again, many "countries" are also "sovereign states", but the many furry four legged animals are cats, doesn't mean every furry four legged animal is a cat.

Generally (as again there actually isn't a concensus or agreement on this), a "country" is a geographical designation, "nation" a cultural/racial designation and "sovereign state" a political one.
 
csirl said:
I'm affraid FIFA's webmaster is wrong on this one - check with the official FIFA documentation and legal department and the FAI and the IOC and they'll confirm exactly what I've said.
Click to expand...

I think I put greater faith into what FIFA writes than what you do. Also, given the length of time that FIFA's website has referred to the Republic of Ireland soccer team, do you not think that someone from the FAI would have been in touch before now to point out such a glaring mistake?

I tell you what, why don't you email them and point out their mistake?

So, if FIFA's webmaster were not to be wrong and FIFA recognises a team called "Republic of Ireland" who govern football in the 26 counties, do you think that team should be dissolved?

You also state:

There is no "Republic of Ireland" soccer team as there no country in existance in the world called "Republic of Ireland".
Click to expand...

You claim that Scotland and Wales are not countries yet they obviously have teams.


I think that you need to think a bit more about what you write in future.
 
csirl said:
There can be no "Republic of Ireland" soccer team as there no country in existance in the world called "Republic of Ireland". The soccer team managed by Trappatoni is fielded by the "Football Assocation of Ireland" and represents Ireland.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I understood that Ireland was the name of the sovereign state and Republic of Ireland was a description.

The EU official reference is "Éire - Ireland" and not "Poblacht na hÉireann - Republic of Ireland". ROI is only used there is a need to distinguish between the Island of Ireland and Ireland the sovereign state. Which in general sporting and political life isn't needed due to use of UK and/or use of Northern Ireland.

Wasn't there also a Supreme Court ruling on this? An extradition warrant was refused because it referred to "Republic of Ireland" and not Ireland?
 
I tell you what, why don't you email them and point out their mistake?

So, if FIFA's webmaster were not to be wrong and FIFA recognises a team called "Republic of Ireland" who govern football in the 26 counties, do you think that team should be dissolved?
Click to expand...

I'm going to email them and the FAI. I'll let you know what response I get, but I expect it will result in the website being updated in time. [A few years ago I forced another International sporting body to change their website and official documentation to this effect, so I'll dig out the same letter and adapt it to FAI].

Question for you - where is this famed "Republic of Ireland " that fields a soccer team? Where is it located? How do you become eligible to play for it? Where is the "Football Association of Republic of Ireland" located and what teams play in their leagues?
 
csirl said:
I'm going to email them and the FAI. I'll let you know what response I get, but I expect it will result in the website being undated in time.

Question for you - where is this famed "Republic of Ireland " that fields a soccer team? Where is it located? How do you become eligible to play for it? Where is the "Football Association of Republic of Ireland" located and what teams play in their leagues?
Click to expand...

Before you email though, I just checked. ROI is the official FIFA designation as is NI, both teams are barred from using Ireland as the name of their teams due to some...erm... "issues" in the past.
 
I'm going to email them anyway :) Nice letter about how every other country in the world is referred to by their official name (as per UN) and we are not and how this is insulting and racially discriminating against Irish people. Worked before - bodies like this tend to be particularly sensitive to discrimination accusations.
 
To be honest, I don't really see it as being important but I think csirl, who has done work in the International sporting arena, stating that Wales and Scotland should not have football teams is an unfair comment given the fun and pride that they give to hundreds of thousands of people.

If these teams were to be disbanded, you can also be sure that the kids of Scottish or Welsh neighbourhoods would have to work twice as hard to play internationally.

The fact is that the teams exist and I think it is great and I react negatively to people passing judgement on them.

There were previously two Ireland teams. Pre partition, the IFA controlled soccer for the whole Ireland. Following partition, the IFA continued as a 32 county body but the FAI was established for the 26.

FIFA stepped in and ruled that from then on the IFA would be responsible for Northern Ireland and that would be the name of the team. The FAI was to be responsible for the Republic of Ireland and that was to be the name of the team.

That is why the FAI governs the Republic of Ireland soccer team and a great team they are.

And if someone were to say that the Republic of Ireland soccer team should not exist as it is not a country, they will get the same response from me.
 
csirl said:
I'm going to email them anyway :) Nice letter about how every other country in the world is referred to by their official name (as per UN) and we are not and how this is insulting and racially discriminating against Irish people. Worked before - bodies like this tend to be particularly sensitive to discrimination accusations.
Click to expand...

So you have changed your tune from the FIFA website being wrong to Irish people being discriminated against?

Should the team as it stands be disbanded?
 
csirl said:
I'm going to email them anyway :) Nice letter about how every other country in the world is referred to by their official name (as per UN) and we are not and how this is insulting and racially discriminating against Irish people. Worked before - bodies like this tend to be particularly sensitive to discrimination accusations.
Click to expand...

isnt there enough hardship going around without generating spurious stuff for some poor divil to go head scratching about?
 
Betsy Og said:
isnt there enough hardship going around without generating spurious stuff for some poor divil to go head scratching about?
Click to expand...

Actually, considering most of the stuff to come from FIFA regards making Women Football teams wear more provocative clothing in order to become more popular, etc, this letter might actually spark something more productive from them.
 
Latrade said:
Wasn't there also a Supreme Court ruling on this? An extradition warrant was refused because it referred to "Republic of Ireland" and not Ireland?
Click to expand...

Yes, You are correct, 'Republic of Ireland' does not exist. This is basic stuff people should know from school...
 
Towger said:
Yes, You are correct, 'Republic of Ireland' does not exist. This is basic stuff people should know from school...
Click to expand...

My point was that the football team is "Republic of Ireland" and if the football team does not refer to a country, should it be unilaterally scrapped as csirl was stating should happen to Scotland and Wales?

I suspect that this will be the last we hear of our International sporting expert csirl on the matter.
 
The team should be called "Ireland" as it represents "Ireland" and to qualify to play you must have an passport from "Ireland" and is fielded by the "Football Association of Ireland". Every other country in the world has their soccer team called after the name of their country, why should we be any different? FIFA can make whatever excuses they wish, but they are legally incorrect on this one.

To add another complication to the debate. The FAI usually fields soccer teams in the olympics (usually doesnt qualify for finals). These teams are fielded under the name "Ireland" as the IOC will only recognise the official UN sanctioned names for countries.

In 2012, the FA (as in the one in England) will be fielding a "United Kingdom" team in the London olympics - Scottish, Welsh and IFA will not be part of the team, though people from those countries will be free to play for the UK in the FA team.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top