Leaving Cert - has it been dumbed down?

[liaconn]

Well, my Godaughter got 470 points and I am thrilled and have the card and the money all waiting for her. But I don't see what this has to do with the issue under debate.

 

[shanegl]

I sat the leaving cert 10 years ago. I was obvious to me at that stage from looking at past papers that certain subject like maths had been made easier.
Perhaps this links in with the massive explosion of numbers attending 3rd level?

 

[BoscoTalking]

from teachers i know, over the years whole difficult chunks are eliminated or simplified from the core curriculum.
imo it has led to the bar being lowered for university courses as an A1 for geography which are achievable can get you a whopping 100 points helping the student on their way to a degree in English - arts is any uni is now less than 400 in total.

 

[truthseeker]

Yes, but I wonder if you compared results this year with results from 15 or 20 years ago would there be a marked difference? I suspect there would.

Its much harder to do the comparison since the A1, A2 business came in, times used to be you just got an A, B or a C, now its all seperated out.

Is there anywhere online you can look at past papers? I could go look at the physics paper and see do I think its been dumbed down since 1992.

 

[liaconn]

from teachers i know, over the years whole difficult chunks are eliminated or simplified from the core curriculum.
imo it has led to the bar being lowered for university courses as an A1 for geography which are achievable can get you a whopping 100 points helping the student on their way to a degree in English - arts is any uni is now less than 400 in total.

I suppose that leads to the next question - are degrees easier to come by now? Nowadays every child seems to go on to College and get an 'ology' in something. My father, who used to sit on interview boards, says that most interviewers would know the quality of various colleges and degree courses and wouldn't really rate some of them or take them into account. Seems a shame for kids to be wasting their time on courses that don't really count in the end.

 

[terrontress]

I don't see it as being much of an issue if the leaving cert is getting easier. The bottom line is that the principal function of the system is to give 3rd level institutions a yardstick to help decide whether they will admit a pupil.

As they say, the cream rises to the top. And if those who were averaging 6 Bs are now averaging 3 As and 3 Bs, the courses that would have traditionally taken leavers with 6 Bs will now only take those with 3 As and 3 Bs.

Personally, I feel that while important, the overall leaving cert result is not as important as the social skills that a child develops while at school.

As for comparing other countries' systems, there may be a higher percentage of those attaining all As, but you can be sure then straight As is all that will get in to certain courses whereas in Ireland, the same course might accept someone with a B as well.

 

[liaconn]

But surely school should be preparing kids for life. If they're trained to think As and Bs are easy to come by, how will they cope when they get to University or when they join the real world of work. I think focussing totally on gaining entry to College is not what school should be about.

 

[S.L.F]

Doubt teaching methods have improved - where is the incentive for teachers to raise thier game?

We have the highest paid teachers, on an hourly basis, of any country in the world, and that is before their "entitlement" to more than 30 days annual sick pay is taken into account.

With teaching standards like that, no wonder the country is stuffed

Just to clarify our teachers on average take 1 days sick leave per year not 30.

This post is the type of stuff that brought the Public service bashing cease fire into place, I really wish it was reinstated.

My own view on the subject is the leaving cert has been dumbed down drastically

 

[lightswitch]

"My father, who used to sit on interview boards, says that most interviewers would know the quality of various colleges and degree courses and wouldn't really rate some of them or take them into account. Seems a shame for kids to be wasting their time on courses that don't really count in the end. "

Liaconn, Could you name these colleges / Courses please. It would be very useful for people to know before they send their sons / daughters to them. LS.

 

[liaconn]

"My father, who used to sit on interview boards, says that most interviewers would know the quality of various colleges and degree courses and wouldn't really rate some of them or take them into account. Seems a shame for kids to be wasting their time on courses that don't really count in the end. "

Liaconn, Could you name these colleges / Courses please. It would be very useful for people to know before they send their sons / daughters to them. LS.

I'm not an interviewer and I'm not an expert in any particular area eg psychology, engineering etc so there's no way I could tell you what courses are rated and what aren't. You'd need to speak to people who regularly recruit and interview in these areas.

 

[pugwall]

I sat the leaving cert 10 years ago. I was obvious to me at that stage from looking at past papers that certain subject like maths had been made easier.
Perhaps this links in with the massive explosion of numbers attending 3rd level?

I sat the LC 10 years ago too and also found that higher level maths appeared to have been made easier. My maths teacher at the time (excellent teacher) got a B in the older syllabus. I got a B in higher level maths in 1999 an never considered myself a strong maths student. Although I only copped on to maths in 6th year having miserably failed the 5th year summer exam. Actually, on that note, i went to a well known grind school durnign the Christmas holidays for paper 1 . My friend went to paper 2 and we swapped the (legendary) notes. These notes (which were excellent) really helped with the B grade. Which leads to the point that grind schools are a major factor contributing to leaving cert grade inflation.

 

[csirl]

Liaconn, Could you name these colleges / Courses please. It would be very useful for people to know before they send their sons / daughters to them. LS.

Probably not a good idea to name them on this forum - dont want AAM getting sued etc.

But suffice to say that typcially these colleges would recruit outside the CAO system or have very low points in the CAO, be privately owned and have their degrees awarded by non-Irish sources e.g. former polytechnics from the UK.

 

[liaconn]

Agreed. Also, you will find they have a very low or even non existent fail rate in most of their courses.

 

[Sunny]

Probably not a good idea to name them on this forum - dont want AAM getting sued etc.

But suffice to say that typcially these colleges would recruit outside the CAO system or have very low points in the CAO, be privately owned and have their degrees awarded by non-Irish sources e.g. former polytechnics from the UK.

Not necessarily. The engerineering programme in one Dublin Univestity is considered inferior to others including the DIT. It has always been this way. Certain Universities have better reputations in certain courses. They compete against each other.

All students have to do is research the courses offered and college to see where is the best place for their particular choice.

 

[liaconn]

On a related note, does anyone remember 'secretarial' or 'commercial' courses. I remember a time when any girl (and it was only females) who didn't want to do nursing, teaching or a university degree used to be channelled into one of these. I suppose they are now called a certificate or a diploma in something.

 

[csirl]

Not necessarily. The engerineering programme in one Dublin Univestity is considered inferior to others including the DIT. It has always been this way. Certain Universities have better reputations in certain courses. They compete against each other.

I fully agree with you - there is some variation in standards among the colleges - but all within an acceptable range i.e. all graduates from all reputable colleges possess the minimum standards for the profession, though some may exceed these standards. But we're talking about colleges who award degrees to people who clearly are not up to even the minimum standards.

 

[liaconn]

Is it true that there's a course on offer through the CAO on jam making? Several of my friends with kids in secondary school have mentioned it (rollling their eyes at the same time). Just wondering if its an urban myth?