Child Abuse Commission Report - Shame

[ivuernis]

I watched and listened to that last night and it sent shivers down my spine.
To be honest it scared the hell out of me just listening to it.

Powerful and unsettling stuff, took a lot of courage, I had a lump in my throat watching it.

 

[Phibbleberry]

I just watched the Q&A clip - words don't suffice.

 

[Bronte]

And if we can’t prosecute an individual because an organisation is covering up for them it’s time to call them what they are – a criminal organisation or in this case criminal enterprise.

On this point, if the money the religious orders were given by the state to care for children was used elsewhere (in the Christian Brothers case for their other schools) can the state recoup this money?

 

[DublinTexas]

On this point, if the money the religious orders were given by the state to care for children was used elsewhere (in the Christian Brothers case for their other schools) can the state recoup this money?

I think that our government lacks the strength and the backbone to even try to get any money back.

There is currently enough mismanagement of funds going on that is not tackled so I seriously question if our government is actually able to even try.

 

[dockingtrade]

what organization would be allowed stand today if it had a brutal sick derpraved evil history like those in this report. These orgs need to be disbanded and their assets broken up and liquidated. For those who say they do good today and there are good people doing good work, let them continue their good work but not under these organizations!! why would anyone want to be associated with these organizations. You cant have thousands of victims passing these institutions everyday and have them operate in their area knowing what they did to them.

 

[MrMan]

what organization would be allowed stand today if it had a brutal sick derpraved evil history like those in this report. These orgs need to be disbanded and their assets broken up and liquidated. For those who say they do good today and there are good people doing good work, let them continue their good work but not under these organizations!! why would anyone want to be associated with these organizations. You cant have thousands of victims passing these institutions everyday and have them operate in their area knowing what they did to them.

I would think it is because those doing good are following a vocation and would have to endure the the mud being slung at them because of their continued membership. They are not doing chores, they are serving God, whether you or I believe in God is a mute point because they do and they cannot simply walk away because of the crimes of others.
We are now seeing just how evil men can be, these men did not do evil in the name of God, they used this as their cover to carry out their depraved acts. The Hierarchy were equally as culpable because they worried about the future of the church which they saw as being paramount and they made terrible decisions that yielded terrible consequences.
We can learn from this and the church has to learn if it is to survive, but there is already a massive difference in society today than from that time. People don't fear the priest, they don't doff their hat and that is how it should be. Men and power can often lead to barbarism and that is what happened.

 

[ney001]

I think Michael O'Brien on Primetime has summed up everything that needs to be said about the report, incredibly brave man, he managed to articulate the suffering of these kids in a few minutes. Painful to listen to let alone live through.

 

[Teatime]

I think Michael O'Brien on Primetime has summed up everything that needs to be said about the report, incredibly brave man, he managed to articulate the suffering of these kids in a few minutes. Painful to listen to let alone live through.

He was on Newstalk this morning. He said he found out where one of his abusers was living in recent years (in a home I think) and went to confront him. He said he was going to give him a "good going-over, maybe even kill him". He went for him when he got there but did not violently because he was old and crippled and wasn't long for this life - he left knowing that this man would rot in hell.

 

[dockingtrade]

He was on Newstalk this morning. He said he found out where one of his abusers was living in recent years (in a home I think) and went to confront him.

as i said in a previous post.
The nazi hunters have little to do these days, send them a new list!!!

 

[Chocks away]

This afternoon on George Hook you had Senator Jo O Toole and Fr Sean Healy (CORI). O Toole was superb on his input and did not deflect in any way. Fr Healy used reverse psychology, lots of mea culpas - repeated very often, was insistant on the fact that more has got to be done (how public opinion has swayed CORI in 72 hours), but apart from that said little new. Why has the vatican been so mute, arms folded demurely into suitane sleeves and looking on from the sideline. Even if lots of these orders were like little republics, should not Rome (as in the case of firms and sub contractors) be responsible ultimately. Let Rome pay the money and then get it back off those deified miscreants. Furthermore, anyone in the knights or opus dei should be taken off any investigative bodies.

 

[ophelia]

The treatment of 165,000+ children by these institutions was sordid and criminal.
I would also add that, unbelievably and unusually, there was one wonderful place of which I am aware. My mother was motherless at four, she had two older sisters and a two year old sister - all of them were under 6. All of them were put in a convent boarding school. She and her sisters received nothing but kindness for the fourteen years she was there. The nuns were the only mother they knew and they were nurtured in a firm but kind and loving way. She never remembers getting even one smack. Thanks to them she got a good education and was taught how to cook, sew and manage her affairs. The nuns nursed two of her sisters out of T.B. who would probably have died if they had been in a normal family at that time. They organised employment for the girls on finishing their leaving certificates and eventhough they were hard times she still talks about the nuns like they were her mother. I realise they were extremely lucky but is it not strange that such good existed amonst such evil.

 

[dockingtrade]

could the victims take a class action against the organizations. In that there was a consiparcy of cover up of child abuse that they new about and allowed it happen?

 

[redstar]

I realise they were extremely lucky but is it not strange that such good existed amonst such evil.

I'm sure there are many good people in the 'religious orders'. Now its time for them to come forward and be counted and return their orders to their original ideals. They should speak out and reform their orders from top to bottom. They can root out the deviants from the inside.
If not, these orders should disband.

I experienced both side of the Christian Brothers at secondary school. One, who was long past retirement age, would kick and punch boys with very little provocation. Another, much younger 'Brother', would devote his religious class to debates and open discussions. I never saw him raise a hand to anyone.

 

[Purple]

I accept that there are many good people in religious orders. I suspect that they are the majority. I can even accept that many of them did not know what was going on, but now they do. Now there is no innuendo, no well meaning but naive denials, no inability to comprehend the magnitude of what was going on. Now all of those good people have a choice; they can either do nothing and accept that they are no better than the abusers or they can step away from them.
Calm and measured words of condemnation are not enough, selling off properties is not enough, expelling members is not enough. If the good people are indeed good then they need to express rage, they need to shout out their anger and sense of betrayal, red faced and veins bulging. Then they need to leave their respective orders and work tirelessly to have those orders disbanded. The government should immediately remove the charitable status of any order that refuses and then seek to prosecute them using organised crime legislation. At a diocesan level any priest, bishop or cardinal for whom involvement is abuse or the cover-up or facilitation of abuse can be shown should face criminal charges. If they are in Rome or another country their extradition should be sought.

Then there’s the state; they were just as much part of the problem as any religious order. The police ignored complaints, indeed along with the judicial, legal and medical professions, and lay-teaching staff, they covered up, ignored and facilitated the abuse. How can institutions that were part of the problem now investigate and stand in judgement over other institutions that were part of the problem?

We now stand in 2009 and judge events from the 50’s to the 70’s by the standards of our time and yet the harsh reality is that children in this country were beaten and dehumanised in schools and often in their homes ‘till quite recently and society at large didn’t just know about it, they didn’t just accept it but they lauded those involved as strong and virtuous. “spare the rod and spoil the child”, “children should be seen and not heard” etc. It took affluence, the cashing off of the dominance of the Catholic Church and a broader world view to change such thinking and that has only happened in the last fifteen or so years. If you don’t believe me ask anyone over 50 how they were treated in school and how they and/or their friends were treated at home.

The “good old days” of domination, abuse and dehumanisation are gone; good riddance to them.

 

[Caveat]

...50’s to the 70’s by the standards of our time and yet the harsh reality is that children in this country were beaten and dehumanised in schools...

Well into the 80s too. I'm not yet 40 and a contemporary of mine was lifted by the ears, punched in the face/stomach and had his hands stamped on - courtesy of some well known "brothers".

Good post Purple.

 

[Bronte]

The “good old days” of domination, abuse and dehumanisation are gone; good riddance to them.

I'm not so sure of this. We do not know what goes on today in old people's homes, psychiatric hospitals, disability homes, children's homes.

What freedom do I have as an Irish citizen if I as a non Catholic wish to become a teacher in a school in Ireland, is it easy for me, can I become a principal, can I if I express a view that say I believe in a woman's right to chose abortion?

What as a parent are my rights in relation to sending my child to the only school in my area which does not cater for children who do not wish to participate in Catholic sacrements?

Can I become a consultant in one of the two top hospitals in Dublin if I express a view that I believe in sterilisation or stem cell research.

If I am raped and go before a judge who is a member of Opius Dei will I be judged on the fact that I am a single mother or that I've slept with a few people or that I wore a mini skirt?

Do I have to keep my personal opinions to myself in certain situations because of the dominance of the Roman Catholic Church in all institutions of the state.

 

[Sunny]

Hell, I am only 33 and I got the last remnants of the Christian Brothers in the 90's and there were a couple of evil sadistic *******s there so can only imagine what they got away with in the past.

 

[Purple]

Hell, I am only 33 and I got the last remnants of the Christian Brothers in the 90's and there were a couple of evil sadistic *******s there so can only imagine what they got away with in the past.

I’m 36 and I remember being beaten to the ground and kicked in 4th class in primary school. The teacher involved was not a member of a religious order and was in his 20’s at the time. He is now the special needs teacher in the same school. I want to a Christian brothers secondary school but there were few brothers left and they were not violent.
My point was that while there was still violence against children in the 80’s and 90’s it was far less socially acceptable by then.

 

[Sunny]

I’m 36 and I remember being beaten to the ground and kicked in 4th class in primary school. The teacher involved was not a member of a religious order and was in his 20’s at the time. He is now the special needs teacher in the same school. I want to a Christian brothers secondary school but there were few brothers left and they were not violent.
My point was that while there was still violence against children in the 80’s and 90’s it was far less socially acceptable by then.

Oh totally accept what you were saying. There were only 4 or 5 brothers left in my school and they were being eased out and you could see that things were changing. I remember going home with a bruise on my face form where I was hit across the face with a book for talking during class and my parents going absolute bannanas that someone had dared lift a finger to me. I can only try and imagine what it must have been like in the bad old days when nobody stood up to that type of behaviour and kids didn't have anyone to look out for them.

 

[Purple]

I can only try and imagine what it must have been like in the bad old days when nobody stood up to that type of behaviour and kids didn't have anyone to look out for them.

and when they got home their parents hit them again for "giving the brother cheek" or so such thing.