Child Abuse Commission Report - Shame

wavejumper said:
Pedophilia and homosexuality are two separate things.

I have seen a recent program on some UK channel where a priest was also trying to blame the abuse on 'the homosexuals'. This is a very sneaky way of the church to try to offload the blame on one of their pet hate groups.

As I said pedophilia is not homesexuality. What went on in the Irish institutions was perpetrated by perverts. Homosexuals don't go abusing children, perverts do. Try not to be brainwashed by the church as it tries to wriggle its way out of this.
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Your right on your points re homosexual and paedophila being seperate but the church is not the exclusive breeding ground for perverts. Perverts operated within the church and every other organisation, this is often a discussion that is used to hammer the church which is a bit distasteful really.
 
what really shocked me over the weekend was 2 photos in the papers, one of the dorms in Artane which was just line after line of beds, no privacy or anything and another of the ref with the boys at dinner. I tried to count the heads and came up with a ball park figure of at least 800 boys. I then heard over the weekend someone on the radio use the phrase "headage payments", similer to what a farmer get's these days for cattle for the EU. No doubting that a fundamental reasons behind the schools existance was money

My mother, who is in her 70s, once made a telling statement to me about the church she said people didn't worship God back then, they worshipped the priest and to me, that explains why they got away with it for so long. Few dared to question the churches authority. Even those that did ( and in fairness, some did) were given no backing or guidance from those in charge

The Catholic Church is not wholly to blame however, the state has to take a lot of responsibilty, in partciular the Dept of Ed civil servants, likwise the Gardai who often turned a blind eye, and the farming community who bascially got slaves out of this.

Germany has it's Jewish shame, America has it's slavery shame, this is Irelands shame
 
Some people need to get a grip. Do those who think the male paedophiles who raped boys would not have raped girls. They just didn't have access to them. Also girls can become pregnant. Why else were nuns looking after girls and brothers/priests after boys. It was deliberately organised that way.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a good priest/brother/nun in any of the institutions where the abuses occured as in reality they colluded with what was going on by doing nothing about it. They are even more evil in the sense that they knew better.

Where can one find a link/website to see what land/assets/money has actually been handed over by which organisation. How is the transfer done by the religious orders. Can the Irish state/health board/religious orders.

Also I understand that the Church is all about money. What did the religious orders do with the profits they made on the breaking of Irish children's spirits?

Has there been any statistics on what happened to the children of these institutions, as in where they worked, in what profession, how many married, did they emigrate.

Can a case be taken against the Irish Government/Health Board/Judicial system/relgious orders under human rights legislation. I'm amazed no child of these institutions has done so, is it becase they are so broken by the system.

How many children are in care in Ireland today (I believe it's 5K). Is everything in relation to this held in secret. How and who takes children from families and where do they go.

I can't refer to what went on because I get too upset, but I'd like to think we could do something about what goes on now. Probably nobody cares. A really sick society. I am ashamed.
 
Mpsox said:
... Germany has it's Jewish shame, America has it's slavery shame, this is Irelands shame
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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here, but you should be aware that anti-Jewish violence is not something that is / was exclusively German.

For example, we have had anti-Jewish pogroms in Cork, Limerick and Dublin during the 19th & 20th centuries, there were anti-Jewish riots in Britain soon after the Second World War and pogroms in Poland during and after the Second World War ( by the indigenous Poles, not the invading Germans or their allies).

I have no idea why you have chosen to single America out in relation to slavery, as the bulk of the slaves that wound up in the continental United States were shipped / traded there by colonist Europeans (Britain, France, Belgium, etc.) and the pursuits and endeavours that lead to the use of slave labour (cotton, sugar-cane, etc.) were also established by the self-same colonists. I think its to America's credit that they had abolished slavery within 80 years of independence from Britain.

I have responded to "Irelands shame" in a previous post and I believe some of my comments there are equally relevant here.
 
Mpsox said:
My mother, who is in her 70s, once made a telling statement to me about the church she said people didn't worship God back then, they worshipped the priest and to me, that explains why they got away with it for so long. Few dared to question the churches authority. Even those that did ( and in fairness, some did) were given no backing or guidance from those in charge
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Speaking to my parents about this over the weekend, my mother told me that when her grandmother died, her children were very young, and the parish priest tried to force the 4 children to be taken into an orphanage, despite having a capable father to look after them. When I asked what business was it of the PP, she said that in those days the PP 'ran' the parish, and dictated what happened, and nobody questioned it. People were afraid of their priests rather than of God.
Very luckily, my great-grandfather appears to have been a strong character, and this wasn't the only time he stood up to the PP and went against the accepted practices of the time (1910's to 1950's) , for the better of our family in the long run.
 
mathepac said:
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here, but you should be aware that anti-Jewish violence is not something that is / was exclusively German.

For example, we have had anti-Jewish pogroms in Cork, Limerick and Dublin during the 19th & 20th centuries, there were anti-Jewish riots in Britain soon after the Second World War and pogroms in Poland during and after the Second World War ( by the indigenous Poles, not the invading Germans or their allies).

I have no idea why you have chosen to single America out in relation to slavery, as the bulk of the slaves that wound up in the continental United States were shipped / traded there by colonist Europeans (Britain, France, Belgium, etc.) and the pursuits and endeavours that lead to the use of slave labour (cotton, sugar-cane, etc.) were also established by the self-same colonists. I think its to America's credit that they had abolished slavery within 80 years of independence from Britain.

I have responded to "Irelands shame" in a previous post and I believe some of my comments there are equally relevant here.
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I'm well aware both of my own countries history and that of others as well, thank you very much. I was in no way stating that anti Jewish pogroms was simply a German issue, sadly it has happened in countries around the world. Likewise, slavery is still practised in some countires.

I was simply making a point that in the same way that the extermination of the Jews in Germany by the Nazis and the mis-treatment of African Americans in the USA are a stain on the history of those 2 great nations, this scandal will be a stain on ours
 
MrMan said:
Your right on your points re homosexual and paedophila being seperate but the church is not the exclusive breeding ground for perverts. Perverts operated within the church and every other organisation, this is often a discussion that is used to hammer the church which is a bit distasteful really.
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The very fact that the church preached against this sort of behaviour and then allowed it to flourish is the sad/illegal thing. Offending priests did use the confessional to elicit information which was later used for their own nefarious purposes. And so, while committing illegal acts, hiding behind the curtain of infallibility (which can be confused with legality). Even in Irish seminaries there have been recent cases of homosexual rings operating. (AFAIK, nothing was said about paedophilia). Michael Ledwith's hasty departure from St. Patrick's College, Maynooth (where he was president) is testament to this. He now "lectures" at a cult headquarters in Washington.
 
Mpsox said:
My mother, who is in her 70s, once made a telling statement to me about the church she said people didn't worship God back then, they worshipped the priest and to me, that explains why they got away with it for so long. Few dared to question the churches authority. Even those that did ( and in fairness, some did) were given no backing or guidance from those in charge
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My mum said nearly exactly the same to me at the weekend. She said even as a 5 year old at (a nun ran) boarding school she was aware that the nuns who ran her school and everyday life reported to no-one.
 
Chocks away said:
The very fact that the church preached against this sort of behaviour and then allowed it to flourish is the sad/illegal thing. Offending priests did use the confessional to elicit information which was later used for their own nefarious purposes. And so, while committing illegal acts, hiding behind the curtain of infallibility (which can be confused with legality). Even in Irish seminaries there have been recent cases of homosexual rings operating. (AFAIK, nothing was said about paedophilia). Michael Ledwith's hasty departure from St. Patrick's College, Maynooth (where he was president) is testament to this. He now "lectures" at a cult headquarters in Washington.
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What individual priests did was illegal that is correct. Any high profile cleric that allowed it to go on should also see jail, but the church does not approve nor encourage this behaviour within the organisation.
The curtain of infallibilty is not there as priests have not claimed to be infallible, they don't claim to be different from us. These things happened when men were able to abuse their power with terrible effect, that is hopefully not the case now.
 
Complainer said:
It is a bit difficult to google on these topics, without getting mired down on dubious sites. Do you reckon that there aren't many straight/married customers of rent boys and gay saunas?
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I understand the dilemma. I was just curious as to the origin of thes claims. And any figures to back them up. I would have thought that most married men, who were in a nice loving relationship with their wives, would pass up on the chance of picking up something for the sake of a cheap thrill. I also understand the psychological lure of liaisons dangereux.
 
MrMan said:
What individual priests did was illegal that is correct. Any high profile cleric that allowed it to go on should also see jail, but the church does not approve nor encourage this behaviour within the organisation.
The curtain of infallibilty is not there as priests have not claimed to be infallible, they don't claim to be different from us. These things happened when men were able to abuse their power with terrible effect, that is hopefully not the case now.
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Touche!
 
MrMan said:
What individual priests did was illegal that is correct. Any high profile cleric that allowed it to go on should also see jail, but the church does not approve nor encourage this behaviour within the organisation.
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True, but unfortunately this is only part of the story. No cleric will see jail because the church responded to wrong-doing among its ranks by buying off the govt - no names are named, very little recompense is paid to victims. It is precisely this way of operating by the Church that has angered so many. Their first priority has been to protect the organisation rather than the victims.

These things happened when men were able to abuse their power with terrible effect, that is hopefully not the case now.
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I really hope so.
The recent remarks by the Archbishop of Dublin to CORI (that they should reconsider the 'deal' done with the Govt) is an encouraging step in the right direction and is to be applauded.
 
I have to say that as much as I never doubted the stories that have come out over the years, I'm still shocked at the sheer volume of cases that the commission has brought to public consciousness...

I believe that the main problem, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, was the fact that in generations past, there was a huge element of priest-fearing rather than god-fearing.

A point that was made earlier was that priests did not become paedophiles rather than the reverse and I think that this is supported in other organisations and situations: Scouts/Swimming Clubs etc..people moved themselves into situations where their urges could be easily facilitated.
I realise that sexual abuse isn't confined to 'people in authority' be it, state, church or otherwise and that familial abuse is/was widespread, but the 'silence' that came with it is shocking. Family members have just as much if not more, of a duty of care to kids as the state did in these institutions. But that doesn't justify anything...needless to say.

The lack of belief (until now) in some peoples stories is truly mindblowing and I only hope instances of this sort of abuse are more unlikely now given the propensity to reaction by society if there is even a hint of a suspected case (although this in itself can be problematic, given the ease at which someone can make a false claim) - I think any hint of abuse should be investigated thoroughly to asscertain the probability of truth.

My fear is that, if this was going on in a so-called civilised society as Ireland, what kind of atrocities that must have been visited upon those vunerable children where missionaries and volunteers had unlimited access to kids...? Again, not to say that it was just those from religious orders that were inclined to these 'vocations'.

My heart goes out to everyone affected - you really don't know how lucky you were to have had such a lovely childhood until you read of the hardships of others....the precieved injustice of not having had the latest barbie/doll seems so insignificant...
 
What sickens me is that the religious institutions knew about priests and brothers who were abusing children and only acted when there was a public complaint - their solution in almost all cases was to 'move them on'. One priest was 'moved on' to 6 parishes and abused children in all 6.

The church has never offered any information/records on the people who they found committing child abuse. They left it to the victims to re-open their traumatic past.

I forced myself to read and listen to the awful stories in the Ryan report at the weekend. Children forced to eat their own excrement, children forced to eat their own vomit, children beaten regularly sometimes to death, children jumping out windows to avoid another beating, brutal acts of violence, children being gang-raped, children forced to give oral sex, children being locked away on their own for days in sheds, children freezing due to lack of clothes, children listening and witnessing the above, children not let see any of their family for years....Then there were the stories of how many of these people fared as adults, how their families have been affected etc. It was upsetting but the upset has now turned to anger.
 
MrMan said:
What individual priests did was illegal that is correct. Any high profile cleric that allowed it to go on should also see jail, but the church does not approve nor encourage this behaviour within the organisation.
The curtain of infallibilty is not there as priests have not claimed to be infallible, they don't claim to be different from us. These things happened when men were able to abuse their power with terrible effect, that is hopefully not the case now.
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The christian religion has everything to do with this. If you want to take the supposed teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ as a personal philosophy then fair enough and all credit to you, however, throw the word 'religion' in the mix and you've got a completely different situation. Organised religion is, was, and always will be a sophisticated system of social control. It has sweet f all to do with loving your neighbour. This was more than a group of sick individuals, this was entirely institutional in almost every sense. For me these crimes were a manifestation of the very nature of the institution, and as such the institution itself is the issue.

I would suggest that the manner of the church's responses entirely bear out this perspective, in particular the extensive efforts to suppress the victim's demands for acknowledgement of their suffering. The pattern of behaviour simply repeats itself in various extremes over time. The central point is the church doesn't have problems, the church is the problem.
 
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