Racism rife as people with Irish sounding names twice as likely to be given job. ERSI

[Pique318]

Re: Racism or not ?

I'll be honest I had to let a few guys go in the last couple of months in a company I work for,all good workers but I did feel it was right to look after the Irish guys first.Might not be the PC thing to do but I was never a fan of that nonsense anyway.I know the lads I let go had planned to work here a few years save their money to build a house etc back home so that played a part in my decision.
The Aussie policy is to employ a native first if possible then so on.
From a company point of view we do want our employee's to stay with us a long time especially with all the resources and money that we put into training and development with our employee's.
Surely we have a right to keep the person who wants to stay for life with us rather than the person who will leave when he has saved enough money to build his house back in his native Country.I know this is not the case for all non Irish workers but there is alot who do think that way.

Did they think it was racism-related ?
I hope for your sake they don't read that article and think that they've got some sort of comeback...

 

[Simeon]

Re: Racism or not ?

This appeared in the SA Mercury last month:
[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
[/FONT]This was a reply to an article, in the Mercury, where the previously disadvantaged
(Blacks) stated that it's not too late for the previously advantaged (including whites, Indians
and Coloureds) to apologize for apartheid. Check out the reply. Just too hot and so true.
The main headline stated the following:

It's not too late for whites to say sorry for Apartheid.............

'To the Previously Disadvantaged'

We are sorry that our ancestors were intelligent, advanced and daring enough to explore the wild oceans to discover new countries and develop them.

We are sorry that those who came before us took you out of the bush and taught you that there was more to life than beating drums, killing each other and chasing animals with sticks and stones.

We are sorry that they planned, funded and developed roads, towns, mines, factories, airports and harbours, all of which you now claim to be your long deprived inheritance giving you every right to
change and rename these at your discretion.

We are sorry that our parents taught us the value of small but strong families, to not breed like rabbits and end up as underfed, diseased, illiterate shack dwellers living in poverty.

We are sorry that when the evil apartheid government provided you with schools, you decided they'd look better without windows or in piles of ashes.

We happily gave up those bad days of getting spanked in our all white Schools for doing something wrong, and much prefer these days of freedom where problems can be resolved with knives and guns.

We are sorry that it is hard to shake off the bitterness of the past when you keep on raping, torturing and killing our friends and family members, and then hide behind the fence of 'human rights'
with smiles on your faces.

We are sorry that we do not trust the government... We have no reason to be so suspicious because none of these poor "hard working intellectuals" have ever been involved in any form of "corruption or
irregularities".

We are sorry that we do not trust the police force and, even though they have openly admitted that they have lost the war against crime and criminals, we should not be negative and just ignore their
corruption and carry on hoping for the best.

We are sorry that it is more important to you to have players of colour in our national teams than winning games and promoting patriotism.

We know that sponsorship doesn't depend on a team's success.

We are sorry that our border posts have been flung open and now left you competing for jobs against illegal immigrants from our beautiful neighbouring countries.

All of them countries that have grown into economic powerhouses after kicking out the 'settlers'.

We are sorry that we don't believe in witchcraft, beet root and garlic cures, urinating on street corners, virginity testing, slaughtering of bulls in our back yards, trading women for cattle and other
barbaric practices.

Maybe we just grew up differently.

We are sorry that your medical care, water supplies, roads, railways and electricity supplies are going down the toilet because skilled people who could have planned for and resolved these issues had to be thrown away because they were of the wrong ethnic background and now have to work in foreign countries where their skills are highly appreciated.

We are so sorry that we'd like this country to fulfil its potential so we can once again be proud South Africans.


The Previously
Advantaged'

PS In the old regime... we had lights and water

 

[mick1960]

Re: Racism or not ?

Top class writing

 

[Latrade]

Re: Racism or not ?

Top class writing

Yes in the sense that Enoch Powell was a great orator. Talked utter and contemptible tripe (no offence to the offal industry), but he did it with style.

Change a few key terms in that statement so it relates to Ireland under British rule and see how top class it is then.

 

[gillarosa]

Re: Racism or not ?

It's bad enought that a piece of tripe like that took up print space in South Africa (if it actually did?) but quoting it here is pathetic, nothing to do with the original post or the issues to hand.

 

[NorthDrum]

Re: Racism or not ?

On the OP's post . .

Personally I think the world is PC mad. Theres no balance or clarity on what exactly is racist or not.

If a colored person in the middle of an arguement called a white person "white trash" there would be nothing much said about it or it probably wouldnt register. If I was having an arguement with a colored person and called them a black piece of dirt (in the heat of the moment), the arguement would end and they would win on the race card irrespective of whether or not I meant it soley as an insult or actually the real bad stigma that comes with racist peoples beliefs . .

Is there racism in the world . . Most definantly . . .

Do minoritys and certain cultures get targeted. . . Most definantly . .

Are the boundaries of whats racist and whats not accepted as politically correct difficult to seperate . . . Most definantly . .

Case in point, capitalism is about supply and demand. Up until now Irish People in many regards were too snobby to take certain jobs, some of them customer service jobs. Right now its an employers market.

If you have 2 CV's on front of you and you have a natural English speaking person with the same qualifications as somebody who has learned English as a second language I believe its not racist to choose the English speaking person from an employers perspective, particularly if having good english is important for the job in question.

I do feel for foreigners in this country that do get isolated because of racism, but also because most Irish people do have an advantage of language over any adopted national. But thats capitalism, I dont see anywhere in the capitalism code of ethics that its important to only make money by being fair and just to all humanity. Its a sad statement but very true . .

 

[Latrade]

Re: Racism or not ?

On the OP's post . .

Personally I think the world is PC mad. Theres no balance or clarity on what exactly is racist or not.

Oops, am about to take it away from OP's post...sorry (and sorry for the ellipsis, I forget who that offends on here).

But two things for me:

1. PCism is largely a media creation. A large proportion of what is supposed to be "PC gone mad" was fabricated by the press or even the press failing to spot satirical writings which they adopted as the truth. Unfortunately there has been a mass uptake of it being the case and has led to a fear of offence.

2. There is no boundary. It's difficult to say (at least in a short statement conducted on the internet instead of down the pub) why "white trash" isn't offensive yet "black piece of dirt" is. To be honest: it just is. There's a plethora of socio-political and historical justification for it, but the upshot is that one is offensive and one isn't.

That's the whole point of "PC", it is society who dictate what is appropriate or not. There's no cut off or point where you can say "that's when you couldn't say 'gay' or 'coloured' anymore", it just seems to be at some indefined point a generation feel it is no longer appropriate. At that point society has determined what is offensive.

Look at old BBC comedies of the 60s and 70s. Even some of the so-called classics, you look at them now from current, modern sensibilities and can't help but cringe and wonder how we ever laughed at that.

The point of all this though is that it is for society to adjust and decide what is appropriate. You cannot legislate for it in order to speed up the process. And that's the fundamental flaw in some political thought.

And finally, just to mention your point on language. I accept that totally, but this report actually eliminated that because all candidates were Irish citizens with English as their first language, the only difference was name.

None of the reason discussed here (such as communication, length of service/stay in country) stand up to that aspect of the report. It perhaps suggest that people have that prejudice when they see the names and then dismiss the CV purely on the basis of name. If they actually read further they would see the individual is Irish and has English as their first language.

 

[NorthDrum]

Re: Racism or not ?

Oops, am about to take it away from OP's post...sorry (and sorry for the ellipsis, I forget who that offends on here).

But two things for me:

1. PCism is largely a media creation. A large proportion of what is supposed to be "PC gone mad" was fabricated by the press or even the press failing to spot satirical writings which they adopted as the truth. Unfortunately there has been a mass uptake of it being the case and has led to a fear of offence.

2. There is no boundary. It's difficult to say (at least in a short statement conducted on the internet instead of down the pub) why "white trash" isn't offensive yet "black piece of dirt" is. To be honest: it just is. There's a plethora of socio-political and historical justification for it, but the upshot is that one is offensive and one isn't.

That's the whole point of "PC", it is society who dictate what is appropriate or not. There's no cut off or point where you can say "that's when you couldn't say 'gay' or 'coloured' anymore", it just seems to be at some indefined point a generation feel it is no longer appropriate. At that point society has determined what is offensive.

Look at old BBC comedies of the 60s and 70s. Even some of the so-called classics, you look at them now from current, modern sensibilities and can't help but cringe and wonder how we ever laughed at that.

The point of all this though is that it is for society to adjust and decide what is appropriate. You cannot legislate for it in order to speed up the process. And that's the fundamental flaw in some political thought.

And finally, just to mention your point on language. I accept that totally, but this report actually eliminated that because all candidates were Irish citizens with English as their first language, the only difference was name.

None of the reason discussed here (such as communication, length of service/stay in country) stand up to that aspect of the report. It perhaps suggest that people have that prejudice when they see the names and then dismiss the CV purely on the basis of name. If they actually read further they would see the individual is Irish and has English as their first language.

Very Good post and I agree with it pretty much to the letter.

I admit I didnt read the report, perhaps my beef is with the PC brigade of the world, but if its an honest case of choosing an Irish Name over a foreign name then I concur with your assessment..

I was playing a soccer video game with a friend (who lives in the US, probably the most PC country in the world) and I missed a chance on goal and said innocently "Ah ye feckin donkey" not even thinking about the colour of the player. He actually said it was a racist comment. I wont write down the "discussion" we had after that but I refused to accept his point.

Hypothetically If I am angry at somebody and I am looking to insult them and use the colour of their skin to get to them is that necessarily racist. E.G. A colored person robs my house and I call them a black piece of dirt (because Im angry and looking to really get under their skin). . . It can be construed as a racist comment, but does not mean I have racist intentions or beliefs. Trying to get under peoples skin is about tactically annoying the hell out of them by any means necessary. I suppose what i am saying is, is your intention of the insult as important as the use of it or are you racist for even reverting to racist kind of insults.

 

[Pique318]

Re: Racism or not ?

I think if you specifically mention the persons skin colour in an insult, then the insult is linked with the skin colour, making it racist. Whereas if it's descriptive (as in, that black guy over there) then it's not racist. And don't give me that 'oh you should be colour-blind'. Why? If people are proud to be black, white, yellow or purple, then why should they take umbrage at being called it ?

Anyway, regarding the OP, I'd like to ask the compilers of the study to do it 10 times and see if there's a pattern. One study gives no definitive basis for making a conclusive statement.

Besides what if they were like David Brent [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them."
[/FONT]

 

[Latrade]

Re: Racism or not ?

I suppose what i am saying is, is your intention of the insult as important as the use of it or are you racist for even reverting to racist kind of insults.

In (american) journalism terms: that's the nutgraph.

There is a perception (and even application in the Equality cases) that offence is in the eye of the person offended. However, the definition of "harassment" is actually quite reasonable because it includes the term "could reasonably be regarded" as being offensive. To my knowledge it has never been argued as to whether in certain examples, the individual was being unreasonable in taking "offence".

In your example, in footballing and other sporting circles a "donkey" is universally applied to all crap footballers irrespective of colour. In fact the most well known was Tony Adams during his drinking days. A terrible footballer at the time and even carried the name "eeyore" beyond giving up the drink and actually turning out to be quite decent.

Though I still think it would have been more appropriate to vent your frustration using the term "non-denominational, non-culturally, non-geographically specific, domesticated member of the equidae family who happens to be of the species E. africanus, but that is no way meant to mean that only those of an african origin would have missed that goal scoring opportunity and that it is equally likely that even a european derrived member of the equidae family, given that they are odd-toed ungulates, would have also missed that opportunity."

 

[NorthDrum]

Re: Racism or not ?

In (american) journalism terms: that's the nutgraph.

Though I still think it would have been more appropriate to vent your frustration using the term "non-denominational, non-culturally, non-geographically specific, domesticated member of the equidae family who happens to be of the species E. africanus, but that is no way meant to mean that only those of an african origin would have missed that goal scoring opportunity and that it is equally likely that even a european derrived member of the equidae family, given that they are odd-toed ungulates, would have also missed that opportunity."

Ive written that down, thanks for that. Next time this player in question misses an opportunity I will pause the game before reading off this line . . .

 

[NorthDrum]

Re: Racism or not ?

Edit: Probably too sensitive discussion for "shooting the breeze" . .

 

[Simeon]

Re: Racism or not ?

It's bad enought that a piece of tripe like that took up print space in South Africa (if it actually did?) but quoting it here is pathetic, nothing to do with the original post or the issues to hand.

An article in the Irish Independent here claims that foreign workers are being discriminated against in favour of Irish workers when it comes to applying for jobs via CV.
Opinions ?

This appeared in the SA Mercury last month:
[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]
[/FONT]This was a reply to an article, in the Mercury, where the previously disadvantaged
(Blacks) stated that it's not too late for the previously advantaged (including whites, Indians
and Coloureds) .......

gillarosa, in your mind it may have nothing to do with the original post or the issues in hand but, as both articles were discussing RACISM, I thought it relevent. (In SA it was deemed "whites, Indian and Coloureds" who were the instigators). Have a read at the opening paragraph again. And why using a newspaper quote is "pathetic" is beyond me. Perhaps you'ld like to extrapolate for the benefit of people who do see the connection.

 

[capall]

Re: Racism or not ?

I think in a jobs market where supply is plentiful local candidates will always be preferred for certain types of jobs
Hirers are normally more familiar with their qualifications for one thing and will feel they can judge a local person better as in they have a frame of reference against which to judge them. They will feel more confident of making a personal judgement about a local person in terms of their track record and motivation

 

[gillarosa]

Re: Racism or not ?

gillarosa, in your mind it may have nothing to do with the original post or the issues in hand but, as both articles were discussing RACISM, I thought it relevent. (In SA it was deemed "whites, Indian and Coloureds" who were the instigators). Have a read at the opening paragraph again. And why using a newspaper quote is "pathetic" is beyond me. Perhaps you'ld like to extrapolate for the benefit of people who do see the connection.

What are you asking for? you obviously know that article did not appear in print in that paper or any other. As far back as November 2008 it was being quoted on the net, it is an e-mail that some little twerp wrote in response to a serious article in that paper and was circulated by his or her fellow travellers and here again you have misrepresented it and posted it to AAM. The term pathetic doesn't actually do justice to your post.

 

[Simeon]

Re: Racism or not ?

What are you asking for? you obviously know that article did not appear in print in that paper or any other. As far back as November 2008 it was being quoted on the net, it is an e-mail that some little twerp wrote in response to a serious article in that paper and was circulated by his or her fellow travellers and here again you have misrepresented it and posted it to AAM. The term pathetic doesn't actually do justice to your post.

To my knowledge this was a reply to an article in the SA Mercury. Regardless of it's origin, do you not think that it is thought provoking? Have a read of Uncle Tom's Cabin or Dinesh d'Souza's The End of Racism. Could we have your views on Zimbabwe, Uganda or Watts, Compton?

 

[S.L.F]

Re: Racism or not ?

Pique I don't see it as being racism I see it more as looking after our own.

Why the hell shouldn't we?

 

[Pique318]

Re: Racism or not ?

Pique I don't see it as being racism I see it more as looking after our own.

Why the hell shouldn't we?

Wehay, and here's me thinking after the Gay Marriage thread, we'd never agree on anything

Fancy a pint ?

 

[S.L.F]

Re: Racism or not ?

Wehay, and here's me thinking after the Gay Marriage thread, we'd never agree on anything

Fancy a pint ?

You can buy the first one but no matter how much you ask we are not going to a gay bar...

 

[Padraigb]

Re: Racism or not ?

... I don't see it as being racism I see it more as looking after our own...

Our own what? Our own people, I suppose. So we favour some people over others simply because they are Irish, and we claim that is somehow right. I'll bet it doesn't look right to the Latvian who has worked here for the past five years, has just lost her job, and is trying to get another one.

This is a thread of weasel words: we don't love them less; it's just that we love ourselves more.

I agree that it's probably not racism, because there is also a bias against other foreigners that are in the same racial group as ourselves. It's xenophobia, and it's not nice.