total income of porter & nurse as per the sunday indo

[MOB]

They predict that there will be 10 Billion people on the planet by the end of the century so I would not loose any sleep over that one.

I would. The global population growth is undoubtedly true - but the population growth is not coming from Western Europe. Along with declining birth rates, Western Europe will, because of population growth elsewhere, continue to have a sustained period of immigration.

If you end up with a two-tier country of old 'natives' and young immigrants, do you think the young immigrants will really want to subsidise the aged through their taxes? There are tumultuous times ahead.

 

[woods]

#


Is there a lower income level you would suggest that people do not have children at?

...

That would all depend on the standard of living you wanted to provide for them.
What I am saying is that you should not expect other people to help you to provide for them. Why should they.

 

[Ancutza]

Ah, come on Woods! So after you've convinced people that they shouldn't have had kids because they can't afford them and you've allowed them to grow old without children, are you then going to explain to them (aged 65) that they better hop off, quick, to the pearly gates so you don't have to pay contributions to their state pension? After all why should you pay? Such thinking is 'zero-sum'.

In an ideal world we'd all be rich and well able to afford our kids, their education, our pension and both of our medical care payments. The reality of life is that we have an obligation to look after the weaker members of society. You are (like it or not) your brothers keeper.

 

[Purple]

The reality of life is that we have an obligation to look after the weaker members of society. You are (like it or not) your brothers keeper.

We have an obligation to assist the weaker members of society to look after themselves.

 

[Ancutza]

And if they can't look after themselves in spite of our best efforts? What are we going to do? Gas them?

I feel strongly about this issue as myself and my wife are god-parents to 3 abandoned kids here in Romania as well as having our own small kid. I know their mother for many years but she doesn't want to know them. For the moment they are (relatively) happily fostered and we do our best to support them by having them on holidays from school, checking up on them as often as possible, even if this only means going for an ice-cream or to the cinema together once a month. They get slipped the odd few bob but since they are 3 amongst 14 we have to be careful not to pick them out to their peers.

We take the strain in alot of instances where their mother should. Her attitude ****es me off personally and i've told her so, but what's the alternative? Should we, having known them for 7 years now, (and they're really lovely kids) tell them that we won't have anything more to do with them because their mother was an idiot who didn't think ahead of the night on which they were concieved?

I know you're going to say 'Well isn't that a classic case of 'shouldn't have kids if you can't take care of them?'" If only the human condition was so simply analysed!

At the end of the day in probably 5 or 6 years time we'll be called upon to assist in putting them through college (something we are determined to 'inflict' on them) and you know what Woods? It will be an honour if we can afford it. They weren't planned. Their parents didn't have enough money to afford their up-keep but at the end of the day they're just little kids and we love them.

Sorry for straying so far off topic but I think that those who live in ivory towers should once in a while consider the real world outside their walls!

 

[Purple]

And if they can't look after themselves in spite of our best efforts? What are we going to do? Gas them?

Nope, help them. If they can help themselves then help them to help themselves. If they can’t help themselves then look after them. If they can help themselves but choose not to then screw them.

I know you're going to say 'Well isn't that a classic case of 'shouldn't have kids if you can't take care of them?'" If only the human condition was so simply analysed!

No, I’ve never advocated that or in any way supported that attitude.

Sorry for straying so far off topic but I think that those who live in ivory towers should once in a while consider the real world outside their walls!

I agree completely. The smell of a shanty town (rot, sweat and stale sewage) stays with you for quite some time.

 

[liaconn]

I think bringing children down to an 'affordable' commodity is a bit sad. Half of us wouldn't be here if our parents had thought like that.

I do think, however, that children's allowances and benefits should be more tightly controlled. People who don't need them should not be entitled to avail of them. And a system which encourages young people to have children as an alternative to going out and earning a living is also dangerous.The number of kids pushing prams around shopping centres nowadays is frightening. (And yes,I know the money is only one element of a very, very large problem).

 

[woods]

There are exceptions to every rule. I am not a hard inconsiderate person. I am objecting to the way that society has developed in to one that assumes that society will help you to support your kids so go ahead and have them even when you can not afford them.
I am not objecting to helping kids who are in dire need. I am objecting to giving money to the parents. Any publican will tell you that children's allowance day is a bonanza day in the pubs.
When I say that I badly needed the children's allowance for a couple of years I should have said that it came in very useful when I was starting out in life but it was a very small amount in those days and I could have survived without it. I am a little sorry now that I used it even for the couple of years that I did as I do think that it should not be paid.

 

[Padraigb]

Nope, help them. If they can help themselves then help them to help themselves. If they can’t help themselves then look after them. If they can help themselves but choose not to then screw them...

Means testing for the purpose of allocating welfare support can be expensive and unreliable.

Imagine how much greater would be the problem of determining who is capable of helping him- or herself but chooses not to.

 

[Purple]

Means testing for the purpose of allocating welfare support can be expensive and unreliable.

Imagine how much greater would be the problem of determining who is capable of helping him- or herself but chooses not to.

That's why I think it should be taxable. Why do people on hundreds of thousands a year get social welfare payments? It's as bad as the greedy selfish rich pensioners who had a tantrum when the medical cards they never should have been given were taken back.
I think most people do not have a problem supporting children/families who cannot support themselves despite their own best efforts. The problem arises when people choose to live off welfare because they are too lazy to motivate themselves and care so little for their children that they have no aspiration that they will do any differently… and despite the mindless protests of upper-middle income socialists that this is not the case the reality is that there are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of those people in this country.

BTW, what other welfare payments (with the exception of pensions) are not means tested?

 

[gipimann]

There are two types of Social Welfare schemes:

Social Insurance schemes are based on PRSI contributions - Jobseeker's Benefit, Illness Benefit, Maternity Benefit, Contributory Pensions, Treatment Benefit.

Social Assistance schemes are means-tested - Jobseeker's Allowance, One Parent Family Payment, Supplementary Welfare Allowance, Disability Allowance, non-contributory pensions.

Child Benefit, as currently paid, falls outside both of these groups - it's paid regardless of income or PRSI contributions. It's known as a universal payment.

 

[liaconn]

It's as bad as the greedy selfish rich pensioners who had a tantrum when the medical cards they never should have been given were taken back.

I think that's a bit unfair. The majority of people who got medical cards had worked their a*ses off during the sixties, seventies and eighties, paid punitive levels of tax and made huge sacrifices to raise and educate their children. This contributed hugely to the economic boom and they fully deserved to benefit in some way themselves. When things started to slow down, the first place the Government came with their axe was to them. I don't think they would have protested if it had been done in tandem with levies, clampdown on bonuses for bankers etc etc.

 

[Purple]

I think that's a bit unfair. The majority of people who got medical cards had worked their a*ses off during the sixties, seventies and eighties, paid punitive levels of tax and made huge sacrifices to raise and educate their children. This contributed hugely to the economic boom and they fully deserved to benefit in some way themselves.

They did benefit; they retired on over €70'000 a year. They also spent their working life in the Ireland of tax evasion and corruption. Did all the people up to their neck in such behaviour 20-30 years ago die young? If working families should pay tax on their children’s allowance (and I think they should) then OAP’s earning over €70’000 a year should have to folk out for their own subsidised (community rated) and tax deductable health insurance.

 

[Padraigb]

I think that's a bit unfair. The majority of people who got medical cards had worked their a*ses off during the sixties, seventies and eighties, paid punitive levels of tax and made huge sacrifices to raise and educate their children. This contributed hugely to the economic boom and they fully deserved to benefit in some way themselves. When things started to slow down, the first place the Government came with their axe was to them. I don't think they would have protested if it had been done in tandem with levies, clampdown on bonuses for bankers etc etc.

I am retired, but not yet at an age where the medical card might have come my way -- and now I don't expect to get one.

I worked during previous hard times (being always lucky enough to have a job) and paid my taxes, even when rates were very high. That does not make me a hero: I worked primarily for my own and my family's benefit, not as an act of selfless patriotism. Now I have a decent pension, and I can afford to pay my way, including medical expenses. Why should I get totally free healthcare, rather than largely free healthcare, when there are people in society with far greater needs than mine?

 

[Caveat]

Well said Padraigb.

 

[liaconn]

They did benefit; they retired on over €70'000 a year. They also spent their working life in the Ireland of tax evasion and corruption. Did all the people up to their neck in such behaviour 20-30 years ago die young? If working families should pay tax on their children’s allowance (and I think they should) then OAP’s earning over €70’000 a year should have to folk out for their own subsidised (community rated) and tax deductable health insurance.

Yes, but the majority of people with medical cards were not evading tax etc. My parents lost their medical card despite the fact that my father is on huge amounts of medication. For the majority of his life he was not earning fabulous money, did without and also remortgaged his house to pay for his family's third level education. He also paid every penny of tax he was due to pay, spent much of his free time doing charity work and eventually did well because of making a very good career decision when he was in his fifties. I was objecting to you calling people like him greedy and selfish because they protested at being targetted at a time when other groups were still living brash elaborate lifestyles and no moves had been made to rein them in and make them 'share the pain'. The removal of the medical card should have been done as part of a package of cost cutting measures. Why was this done before there was any mention of means testing child benefit, reintroducing 3rd level fees for those who can afford it and tackling the issue of Ministerial pensions?

 

[Purple]

He can claim back his prescription expenses over €100 per month. The balance is tax deductable. Health insurance should cover most of the rest (if there’s anything left over its tax deductable).
Anyone on over €70'000 a year who will march in the streets instead of paying a few quid a week in selfish... what other word is there?

 

[liaconn]

He can claim back his prescription expenses over €100 per month. The balance is tax deductable. Health insurance should cover most of the rest (if there’s anything left over its tax deductable).
Anyone on over €70'000 a year who will march in the streets instead of paying a few quid a week in selfish... what other word is there?

How dare you.

 

[liaconn]

I would just like to add that he, like a lot of people, lost all his savings practically overnight because of the corrupt behaviour of bankers and, unlike younger people, will have no second chance.
The week before last he spent 24 hours lying on a trolley in A&E, without a pillow because they had 'run out', totally exposed to public view and left with no dignity. The walls were lined with old people lying on trollies, most of whom had probably paid taxes all their lives and had also probably lost most of their savings. The elderly have been treated like dirt in this country by a brash and greedy celtic tiger generation who have given new meaning to the word 'selfish'.

 

[Sunny]

To be fair if your parents lost the medical card it means they have an annual income of over €70,000. If your father has the high medical expenses that you say, they can also claim for the card under a hardship basis if they are struggling. I personally think that all social welfare payments and benefits should be means tested. I don't see why I should get child benefit if I don't need it. And its not a case of the Celtic Tiger generation picking on the older generation. All these new rules will affect us in the future as well.

The state of the health system is a different argument.