Effect of budget .

thedaras said:
Tell me this then ,should everyone not buy a house car etc,just in case the goverment decide to take the money which was budgeted for?
Re trips to hairdressers etc,it is the goverments fault that some of us can now not afford them.we worked hard to earn the money and they have now taken it away.
You are being riduclous asking if they signed papers for fixed rate morgages etc,but what they did do was sign off on hugh public sector bills.I obviously signed my fixed rate morgage,BASED on my income,however FF have now erroded that.
How do you determine living beyond our means?
How do you think people can afford to hire DJs? ahh disposable income? oh but thats living beyond our means..
I did and do earn the money to pay morgage bills etc,but FF have decided that they will stop that and not allow me to keep the money Ive earned and budgeted while paying a hugh amount of taxes.
The logical conclusion of your argument is that no one should buy anything just in case FF decide we have too much
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I don't know but they are better value than bands so its a good decision;)

You ignored all the questions i posed above. There is more than one reason for this.

I got up this morning and there was no milk in the fridge......was that FF fault as well, where do you draw the line.
 
I heard Brian L say there today that the levies will become permanent in December 2009. When we say that Ireland is a low TAX economy, does this take LEVIES into account? We have an income levy, a health levy, and PRSI. These, added to income tax, means that there are a lot of people in this country paying over 50% on moderate enough wages by world standards*.

*By World Standards, I mean the rich world that we are continually told we are part of. Our government constantly tells us we are members of the richest nations of the world, so lets compare ourselves with them.
 
Brian Lenihan isn't going to be Minister for Finance forever, and Fianna Fail aren't going to be in power forever. He can't really state that anything's 'permanent'. I presume the levies could be removed as part of any future budget, if the economic climate so allowed.
 
I wouldn't say we're 'all to blame', but I do agree we all have to work together to solve the problem, including tightening our belts. Hopefully, with everyone in the same boat ,the 'keeping up with the Joneses' mentality will disappear and people will no longer feel under pressure to spend money on fancy cars/holidays/social lives that they can't really afford.
 
I done my sums and, based on MIR/Income Levy/Health levy, we're down €300 per month.

We can absorb this without having to make hard decisions, but I'm now dreading what is yet to come in December cos I can't imagine how we could absorb a punch of equivalent power. And we'll probably be back to one income by then.
 
I think that a lot of problems that this nation is facing are coming from a lot of contributors and not only the government of the day.

Sure a lot of problems can be traced down to incompetence when it came down to managing a market that was based on a ponzi scheme or standing up to the social partners.

Nobody did force anybody to buy an overprized house/apartment when it was clear than once more units were on the market than people needed that this would come down. But everybody did try to participate in this get rich quick scheme and the state aided it with mortgage relief and other incentives.

And once it call came crashing down nobody in the ruling class has the wisdom to take action and made it just worse.

So the outcome is an unfair budget that penalizes people that work and try to cover themselves for rainy days by saving, having a life insurance with critical illness cover or a private pension so that they can actually have a life once they retire. Levies on Life Insurances, higher levies on savings or investments is a joke. There have been losses in pension funds and they start hiking the taxes?

People who are on social welfare are the clear winners of this budget. Yes I am saying it. They got their 3% inflation increase at the beginning of the year and now we have 4% deflation so they get a big hike while I have to save even more because I now have to pay for a clueless government. And before you shout but they took the x-mas bonus away, I’m working and I don’t get a an x-mas bonus. All my bonuses have been eliminated long ago and I have to pay more taxes now.

The looser are also people with private health insurance, not only do the prices go up because of the recent tax on health insurance, we now have to pay 4% for something we might not even use because we choose not to take the risk of dying on a trolley in Beaumont hospital. Now if the 2% addition would actually go to a modern health service (like they have in other countries) I might be convinced to pay it, but this is going to go either directly to the builders or banks or additional managers in the HSE and not equipment or frontline staff.

And in the long run there will be one clear looser: Ireland

Because today in the office I saw the first mobile “non nationals” talking to HR about transferring to another country. These are the people which should have been kept in the country because they contribute to the tax in large amounts. And I’m sure that our HR is soon going to hold a presentation about this and I’m also going to attend because once I pay over ½ of my salary to the tax man I rather move to Sweden where for the ½ of my salary in taxes I get working public transport and a health system where I don’t need private insurance to be taken care off.

And given that I lost about 12% of my salary now due to the different hikes I will make cutbacks and they won’t help stimulating the economy or create jobs. No more going out, no more food delivery and more into the pension funds for as long as that still works.
 
DublinTexas said:
I think that a lot of problems that this nation is facing are coming from a lot of contributors and not only the government of the day.

Sure a lot of problems can be traced down to incompetence when it came down to managing a market that was based on a ponzi scheme or standing up to the social partners.

Nobody did force anybody to buy an overprized house/apartment when it was clear than once more units were on the market than people needed that this would come down. But everybody did try to participate in this
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get rich quick scheme and the state aided it with mortgage relief and other incentives.

And once it call came crashing down nobody in the ruling class has the wisdom to take action and made it just worse.

So the outcome is an unfair budget that penalizes people that work and try to cover themselves for rainy days by saving, having a life insurance with critical illness cover or a private pension so that they can actually have a life once they retire. Levies on Life Insurances, higher levies on savings or investments is a joke. There have been losses in pension funds and they start hiking the taxes?

People who are on social welfare are the clear winners of this budget. Yes I am saying it. They got their 3% inflation increase at the beginning of the year and now we have 4% deflation so they get a big hike while I have to save even more because I now have to pay for a clueless government. And before you shout but they took the x-mas bonus away, I’m working and I don’t get a an x-mas bonus. All my bonuses have been eliminated long ago and I have to pay more taxes now.

The looser are also people with private health insurance, not only do the prices go up because of the recent tax on health insurance, we now have to pay 4% for something we might not even use because we choose not to take the risk of dying on a trolley in Beaumont hospital. Now if the 2% addition would actually go to a modern health service (like they have in other countries) I might be convinced to pay it, but this is going to go either directly to the builders or banks or additional managers in the HSE and not equipment or frontline staff.

And in the long run there will be one clear looser: Ireland

Because today in the office I saw the first mobile “non nationals” talking to HR about transferring to another country. These are the people which should have been kept in the country because they contribute to the tax in large amounts. And I’m sure that our HR is soon going to hold a presentation about this and I’m also going to attend because once I pay over ½ of my salary to the tax man I rather move to Sweden where for the ½ of my salary in taxes I get working public transport and a health system where I don’t need private insurance to be taken care off.

And given that I lost about 12% of my salary now due to the different hikes I will make cutbacks and they won’t help stimulating the economy or create jobs. No more going out, no more food delivery and more into the pension funds for as long as that still works.
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I agree with you almost 100 % except where quotes are wraped,as I purchased my house long before the prices went sky high.so cant be blamed for buying an overpriced home.

I remember long ago when Tallaght was built and then the government brought in a scheme wherby people could hand back the keys to the house and get some money,this did happen and most of the people who could get out did get out.

Ireland as a whole is now a bit like that tallaght situation in that those of us who can go will go.
I hope I can go...as if I, like you If I have to pay so much of my income in taxes at least it will be working for me,,as opposed to this country that is falling apart at the seems,badly run,utterly overstaffed public service and mismanaged beyond comprehension.
 
Ron Burgundy said:
Did they pick a fixed rate mortgage ??

Did they decide to get a car loan ???

Did we overspend and have the highest rate of credit per person in Europe ??

So what you are saying is that FF are the only and sole group to blame for the economy ???

Are you saying that the ecenomic slow down world wide has nothing to do with it ??

Are you saying that the behaviour of the banks giving 100% mortgages and mortgages worth 10 or 12 times a persons salary are not to blame ???

We are all to blame and we all have to work together to get out of it.

Politicians will always mess things up......but we will always voting them in......
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Having read through this thread, it is clear to me that you are living in a different reality to the one I inhabit. In my world (the real one), most people work there This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language off, and yes, pre bust - many ventured forth to buy a car, or house, or holiday, with their hard earned cash. Did people foresee the economic catastrophe ahead? Perhaps they believed Bertie in 2007, when he promised continued improvements in the standard of living.

The excessive mortage borrowing was driven by FFs absolute failure to manage public finances (their pro-cyclical policies fuelled an economy which was beginning to overheat). Their 'light-touch' regulation of the banking sector facilitated near criminal actions by the banks, and their courting of developers was/is scandalous.

If FF had managed the economy prudently, we would be in a much more manageable crisis - and the corrective measures required would be more reasonable.

So, yes - I categorically lay the blame for this disaster squarely, at FF's door. I don't accept any blame - I did nothing wrong. I am one of the so called 'middle class', and apparently, can afford to lose 10% of my income. Well guess what - I continue to work my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language off, and I can't afford to take such a hit.

This government is morally and intellectually bankrupt - they should be behind bars, rather than sitting at the Dail bar.

Idiots who buy the 'it was the global crisis' line, need their head examined - this government should shag off to where they belong - a third rate, third world, banana republic!!
 
thedaras said:
What can we do? Out FF...they caused it they should suffer the consequences..
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Personally I would love to tie the lot of them behind my tractor and not stop dragging them around until the chains broke, but what would an election achieve?
I have heard a lot of people calling for a general election etc. but I keep looking at who and what we will get in return. FG + Labour, who will spend the entirity of their time in power saying its not our fault-we never caused this mess-look what we have to do to fix FF's mess but still implementing the same type of budgets. The majority of the opposition wouldnt run a dog house (most prominent is Enda Kenny). If there was an election how long would it be before the new government is in and settled, time is of the essence now more than ever.
 
bullbars said:
Personally I would love to tie the lot of them behind my tractor and not stop dragging them around until the chains broke, but what would an election achieve?
I have heard a lot of people calling for a general election etc. but I keep looking at who and what we will get in return. FG + Labour, who will spend the entirity of their time in power saying its not our fault-we never caused this mess-look what we have to do to fix FF's mess but still implementing the same type of budgets. The majority of the opposition wouldnt run a dog house (most prominent is Enda Kenny). If there was an election how long would it be before the new government is in and settled, time is of the essence now more than ever.
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To be honest even if the opposition did implement the same type of budget,I would still rather it wasnt the makers of the mess who were in power.

I would hope that if/when there is a general election that the partys in opposition would have a clear and logical plan as to how to go forward and tackle the mess left by FF,then we can vote for this mandate?

I often think that say for example someone came to put in a driveway for me and I paid them well to do,then they make a complete and utter mess of it,then they tell me they will fix it,but I will have to pay a fortune for it!!

I think Id take my money elsewhere and if I have to pay a fortune at least I would have a proper job done.
 
And it continued yesterday with loads of people ripping into the current Gov due to their decision to take on the bad debts of the banks, or create the 'Bad Bank' as its now known.

They all used the opportunity to say that the Gov was crazy, even though the majority of experts and economists that I have heard of TV and in the media over the last 6 months said it was the correct thing to do.

Its a lose-lose situation for the Gov I'm afraid.
 
DonDub said:
The excessive mortage borrowing was driven by FFs absolute failure to manage public finances (their pro-cyclical policies fuelled an economy which was beginning to overheat). Their 'light-touch' regulation of the banking sector facilitated near criminal actions by the banks, and their courting of developers was/is scandalous.

If FF had managed the economy prudently, we would be in a much more manageable crisis - and the corrective measures required would be more reasonable.

Idiots who buy the 'it was the global crisis' line, need their head examined - this government should shag off to where they belong - a third rate, third world, banana republic!!
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Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

The mortgage borrowing was nothing to do with FF, it was the desire/need/compulsion of people to own their own homes at any cost. I don't blame them, I don't blame the government, I don't even blame the banks. It happened all over the world because all the banks are global. The banks used to be a cartel, then measures were intorduced to deregulate and to introduce competition. Once the potential was realised across the world in the sub prime market that's when it went wrong.

All governments turned a blind eye to the morality and practices, not just here. The reality is though that it is global and unfortunately we've seen the real colours of so-called "special relationships" as each country has taken a feck you attitude and look to secure its own interests. We're small fish, we p*ssed a lot of our European cousins off over the last decade with our poaching business, rubbing noses in our wealth. Now we have to sort out the finances and try and compete again with the big boys.

I'm not happy with the budget because I lose money, but I know why it has to be done. It could have been better and there are other measures. But it's nowhere near as bad as it was for our parents, nowhere. They didn't have phones, cable, internet, large cars and they still had to pay huge interest, huge inflation, huge tax and usually on one salary and with kids to feed and clothe and send to school.

As I said, I'm not happy, but some perspective is needed.
 
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Latrade said:
Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

The mortgage borrowing was nothing to do with FF, it was the desire/need/compulsion of people to own their own homes at any cost. I don't blame them, I don't blame the government, I don't even blame the banks. It happened all over the world because all the banks are global. The banks used to be a cartel, then measures were intorduced to deregulate and to introduce competition. Once the potential was realised across the world in the sub prime market that's when it went wrong.

All governments turned a blind eye to the morality and practices, not just here. The reality is though that it is global and unfortunately we've seen the real colours of so-called "special relationships" as each company has taken a feck ou attitude and look to secure its own interests. We're small fish, we p*ssed a lot of our European cousins off over the last decade with our poaching business, rubbing noses in our wealth. Now we have to sort out the finances and try and compete again with the big boys.

I'm not happy with the budget because I lose money, but I know why it has to be done. It could have been better and there are other measures. But it's nowhere near as bad as it was for our parents, nowhere. They didn't have phones, cable, internet, large cars and they still had to pay huge interest, huge inflation, huge tax and usually on one salary and with kids to feed and clothe and send to school.

As I said, I'm not happy, but some perspective is needed.
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But are those of us who see things this way not living in our own little world.... careful or you'll talk us into a recession !!!
 
Latrade said:
Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

The mortgage borrowing was nothing to do with FF, it was the desire/need/compulsion of people to own their own homes at any cost. I don't blame them, I don't blame the government, I don't even blame the banks. It happened all over the world because all the banks are global. The banks used to be a cartel, then measures were intorduced to deregulate and to introduce competition. Once the potential was realised across the world in the sub prime market that's when it went wrong.

All governments turned a blind eye to the morality and practices, not just here. The reality is though that it is global and unfortunately we've seen the real colours of so-called "special relationships" as each company has taken a feck ou attitude and look to secure its own interests. We're small fish, we p*ssed a lot of our European cousins off over the last decade with our poaching business, rubbing noses in our wealth. Now we have to sort out the finances and try and compete again with the big boys.

I'm not happy with the budget because I lose money, but I know why it has to be done. It could have been better and there are other measures. But it's nowhere near as bad as it was for our parents, nowhere. They didn't have phones, cable, internet, large cars and they still had to pay huge interest, huge inflation, huge tax and usually on one salary and with kids to feed and clothe and send to school.

As I said, I'm not happy, but some perspective is needed.
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Yes, excellent post. It also brings to mind our rejection of the Lisbon Treaty, seen by many as the Smug Paddy's way of giving the middle finger to a Europe we no longer needed because we thought we were doing so well on our own. And now we're hoping they'll bail us out. Has anyone else picked up on the "I wish the new Lisbon Treaty vote was next week so that we can vote Yes this time" vibe around the place or is it just me?
 
Lex Foutish said:
Yes, excellent post. It also brings to mind our rejection of the Lisbon Treaty, seen by many as the Smug Paddy's way of giving the middle finger to a Europe we no longer needed because we thought we were doing so well on our own. And now we're hoping they'll bail us out. Has anyone else picked up on the "I wish the new Lisbon Treaty vote was next week so that we can vote Yes this time" vibe around the place or is it just me?
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Honestly haven't heard one person say that. At the moment most people are just blaming the government for everything and if they go to the public asking them to vote white they will just vote black for what they see as revenge.
 
thedaras said:
Tell me this then ,should everyone not buy a house car etc,just in case the goverment decide to take the money which was budgeted for?
Re trips to hairdressers etc,it is the goverments fault that some of us can now not afford them.we worked hard to earn the money and they have now taken it away.
You are being riduclous asking if they signed papers for fixed rate morgages etc,but what they did do was sign off on hugh public sector bills.I obviously signed my fixed rate morgage,BASED on my income,however FF have now erroded that.
How do you determine living beyond our means?
How do you think people can afford to hire DJs? ahh disposable income? oh but thats living beyond our means..
I did and do earn the money to pay morgage bills etc,but FF have decided that they will stop that and not allow me to keep the money Ive earned and budgeted while paying a hugh amount of taxes.
The logical conclusion of your argument is that no one should buy anything just in case FF decide we have too much
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While the budget cuts are severe and have cost most families several thousand per annum in disposable income which certainly will make people think more about how they spend their income and cut back on luxuries, it should not put anyone who has been sensible about their spending in serious financial trouble.

Did you ever hear of contingency? Most sensible people leave a margin of contingency in their budgeting as there is always a possibility of unforeseen expenses. This contingency is not always about putting money away for a rainy day, more often than not for younger families its a matter of making sure that you do not have too high a percentage longer term committed expenditure that you cannot make adjustments at short notice. Long term committed expenditure includes likes of mortgages and significant bank loans e.g. car loans. If you have too much of your disposable income timed up in committed expenditure, you have only yourself to blame. Chances are if the tax increases didnt get you, something else would have within the next few years.
 
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