sue plumber over work carried out

[Emau]

Hi all,

We moved into our self-build a year ago. We had problems with the plumbing from the beginning. At the moment the ceiling in my bathroom is coming down, laminate flooring is coming up, various water marks in the painting, no hot water the past week and the latest is that after he came back to fix something, my back boiler stove and all the pipes started banging. This happened while I was giving a yoga class ( I work from home) and my eldest daughter ran in terrified that the house was going to blow up. Needless to say I had to leave my clients.

The plumber is a friend of my husband and my husband is hesitant to take any action. But by now I'm fed up and it's not improving the relationship between me and my husband. We have no contract, no proof of payments as everything was cash. The only thing is a handwritten piece of paper specifying the work but no name or signature.
Is there anything that I can do, any legal steps? Cause ideally I would like somebody else coming in, fix everything including the plasterwork, flooring and paint and send him the bill.

Apologies for the rant but I'm ready to kill....

 

[Complainer]

It will take years to sue, and the lawyers will take a good chunk of the money. I guess this is one of the risks of doing jobs for cash. A negotiated solution is your best bet. Just curious, does your planning permission allow for running a business such as yoga classes at the house?

 

[Emau]

As long as I don't have to pay for solicitor's fees I don't care how long it takes.

As regards planning permission for yoga classes I guess not. Never even thought about it. Do people need planning permission for a home office? Guess that's a whole other issue.

 

[DavyJones]

I would assume letting paying members of the public into your home is very different from working alone in a home office.

Anyhow back on topic.

You probably have very little chance of recovering money through the courts as ye both defrauded the exchequer. (I do not know this for fact)

You will have to give the plumber a chance to repair his work, ask him has he liabilty insurance?
Your best bet may be going through your own house insurance if you want it done quickly.

Commuication with the tradesperson is key, have a meeting and try to come to some agreement.

Best of luck.

 

[Complainer]

As long as I don't have to pay for solicitor's fees I don't care how long it takes.

WIth any legal action, you run the risk of paying the other side's fees if you lose. I'm not sure how a court would view 'deal for cash', but I recall some legal principle about parties coming to court with 'clean hands'. You'll need to decide if you are prepared to risk this.

Also, even if you were to win the case, there is the question of whether he is a 'mark', i.e. will he pay up to protect his credit rating, or will he dissappear off to Oz. Has he any assets (other than a family home) that a sherrif could sieze to enforce a judgement?

I understand you are stressed with this, but I think you're focusing on the wrong angle. Put the legal options behind you, and find a way to negotiate a solution between yourself, your other half and the plumber.

 

[mathepac]

...You will have to give the plumber a chance to repair his work, ask him has he liabilty insurance?...

If he did this as a cash-in-hand nixer, professional liability insurance is unlikely and as there was no contract, no engineering inspection or sign-off (?), a claim is unlikely to fly.

... Your best bet may be going through your own house insurance if you want it done quickly...

As the property is apparently being used as a commercial premises without permission, unless OP lies on an insurance claim, this won't work either, as it invalidates the house insurance.

Sounds to me like its time to bit the bullet, give the original "plumber" his marching orders and get a professional in to undertake the remedial plumbing work before doing the redecorating.

 

[Emau]

Thank you all for your reply. it just brings up a few more questions.

WIth any legal action, you run the risk of paying the other side's fees if you lose. I'm not sure how a court would view 'deal for cash', but I recall some legal principle about parties coming to court with 'clean hands'. You'll need to decide if you are prepared to risk this.

I understand that I might end up to pay the other sides fees. What does 'clean hands' mean? I don't want to go to court but if I know what the possibilities are I can at least tell him what will happen next if he doesn't fix everything.

Furthermore, The house is signed off by an engineer otherwise you don't get your last stage payment.

The plumber is registered with the National Guild of Masters Craft Men so I assume he has liability insurance.

I don't really understand what my working from home has to do with it? A therapist has paying clients coming in their office, what's the difference regarding planning permission? I'm registered and pay taxes. Unless you mean when I go to court, the plumber would bring it up, but then what happens?

 

[mathepac]

Emau, I feel for you in your predicament and the apparent naivety your posts display -

... Furthermore, The house is signed off by an engineer otherwise you don't get your last stage payment...

If this is true then use the engineer's report to get the current "plumber" to take remedial action on the plumbing, finish and decoration. I fear you will discover that the engineer's report protects the interests of the mortgage company and not the house-holder.

... The plumber is registered with the National Guild of Masters Craft Men so I assume he has liability insurance...

Personally, I would have made no assumptions and would have checked his insurance cover, but as you had no contract and there is no money trail......

... I don't really understand what my working from home has to do with it? ...

This is worrying. If you cannot grasp the difference between working from a home-office using a phone and a lap-top and inviting groups of paying clients into your home to engage in physical activity under your guidance then I'm very much afraid you may need to find another line of work, fast.

Yoga, dance-classes, massage and other physical therapies, require at least three things :

1 A suitably qualified, trained, professionally supervised and insured therapist
2 A suitable premises, that has been inspected and passed suitable for use as a health-clinic, treatment centre, medical-centre, health-studio, etc. by the local authority, fire-officer, HSE reps, etc.
3 Adequate insurance for the premises for employers and public liability insurance.

... A therapist has paying clients coming in their office, what's the difference regarding planning permission? ...

I'm not sure if you mean a "talk-therapist" or a "physical-therapist" here, but they are very different things with very different practice and building requirements.

... I'm registered and pay taxes. Unless you mean when I go to court, the plumber would bring it up, but then what happens?

Registered as what - self-employed? This cannot be any form of professional registration as it appears you don't know enough about the risks and requirements to protect yourself, your clients, your family or your home.

Sorry to be so blunt but if a client has an accident on your property, your plumbing problems may be the least of your worries.

 

[Complainer]

What does 'clean hands' mean?

I was referring to the possibility that a judge might view the fact that you opted to deal in cash with no paperwork as an attempt to evade tax. Note that I've no practical experience to go on here, so I'm really just making some guesses.

Furthermore, The house is signed off by an engineer otherwise you don't get your last stage payment.

Did you ask the engineer how he managed to miss such obvious difficulties with the plumbing?

 

[Chocks away]

Sorry to hear of your dilemma Emau. A friend of a friend doing work is always risky - especially in the cash zone. This guy is not a plumber. mathepac has given a true synopsis. Time to stop messing about - for your own mental state and that of your family. An expensive lesson.

 

[Emau]

Thank you Mathepac and Complainer. Never expected my situation to get worse while I'm sitting behind my laptop... Clearly I have to sort other things out as well and I appreciate that you take the time pointing it out.

1 A suitably qualified, trained, professionally supervised and insured therapist
2 A suitable premises, that has been inspected and passed suitable for use as a health-clinic, treatment centre, medical-centre, health-studio, etc. by the local authority, fire-officer, HSE reps, etc.
3 Adequate insurance for the premises for employers and public liability insurance.

I am qualified and registered as a soletrader. The local council facilitated a Start your own Business course, never said anything, my accountant didn't and my insurance company where I have the public liability never mentioned anything either. Guess that makes me even more naive.

Did you ask the engineer how he managed to miss such obvious difficulties with the plumbing?

When the engineer signed off, everything was fine.

 

[Complainer]

When the engineer signed off, everything was fine.

I guess it was fine from your point of view, but the whole point of getting someone like an engineer to check on these things is to get an expert view. If the job wasn't done properly, presumably an expert should have been able to pick this up, even if there were no obvious symptoms to the client.

 

[Mr Bishi]

Hi emau,sorry to hear of this trouble you're havng. I noticed you mentioned that he was a member of the national guild. Just because he's a member there does not mean much. I know this because I left them because it's other trades that recommend a trades person and that they don't actually go out and inspect your work. So it's actually fairly easy to get registered with them.

But what they do have is an on call engineer that calls to jobs of clients with problems like the ones you have. If this guys work is as bad as you say then it's the national guild you should get onto and say to them you want their engineer to call out and inspect it. Also just because he's a member there doesn't automatically mean he has insurance.

Exhaust every other route before you go legal. Do get onto the national guild tho, I'm sure they can point you in the right direction. Good luck.

 

[Caveat]

One thing Emau and it may be simplistic or stating the obvious, but you say the plumber is 'a friend' of your husbands - do you mean a real friend or just someone he knows?

If he is an actual friend, surely they can have a talk, as friends, and sort this out? I know if the workmanship of one of my friends left me in your predicament it would be sorted - and quickly - and the whole legal route wouldn't even cross my mind.