Nation in denial

[DerKaiser]

Isn't it strange how the firstly/secondly/thirdly downsides of the pension levy don't get much airtime? .

Well here you go in regards of airtime and the fairness of the pensions levy. It's simply a pay cut to reflect the fact that this country cannot afford current levels of public sector pay. If you want to make a protest about its perceived fairness in the guise of a pensions charge that's fine.

Personally I believe it should be tweaked so that top levels of pay are cut in line with the way bank salaries are now being cut. As regards those on lower pay I'd be happy to support the idea that top rates of public sector pay should be much harder hit but I wouldn't support any protest aimed at not taking any hit themselves

 

[diarmuidc]

I wasn't aware 'I' was suddenly 'the Government'.

They should study ICTU's ten point plan and get back into talks to ensure that the ordinary workers do not carry the entire can through job losses, pay cuts and levies while the wealthy, including bankers and developers escape unscathed. This would require significant input from tax experts, economists etc who are far better qualified than 'I' to work out the fine details. Like everyone else, I am just intelligent enough to realise that there is something very wrong about the ordinary man on the street suffering while the people who caused the problem appear to be getting off scot free. I don't mind 'sharing the pain' if it gets the country back on its feet, I do mind the fact that some people seem to be hogging all the painkillers and leaving the rest of us to suffer.

So you have no idea if what ICTU is claiming is possible or not, you are just repeating their talking points? If you take even 5 minutes to look at the figures you'll quickly realise that it's not possible. I could outline why if you don't believe me.

 

[shanegl]

No, if they dare to hit the PS with two cuts when everyone else gets hit with one, we'll show them the error of their ways.

I must have imagined all those pay cuts happening in the private sector. I guess since the Government didn't make them, they musn't count.

 

[sunrock]

People who are earning less than the average industrial wage may not lose out terribly by losing their jobs.Apart from a redundancy cheque,a married couple with 2 kids would be getting about 400euros a week .Surely the dole could be cut by 50 euros a week to 150 euros.....it wasn`t that long ago that it was about that amount.Also the other forms of welfare like pensioners and carers etc could take a similiar cut.I know not politically popular especially as there are maybe 400,000+ people claiming in this way.The minimum wage will have to be reduced as well,down to about 5 euros.Then we can have benchmarking looking down,instead of everyone trying to match the salaries above them.Next we need to get back to progrssive taxation like it used to be and also to include gov. pensions...I propse a 90% tax on evry gov pension on the balance above 50,000..that would sort out the likes of neary.Its amazing how people would adjust if everyone took their fair share of pain...after all,the furore of the teachers unions after the autumn budget seems to have abated.

 

[cole]

Its amazing how people would adjust if everyone took their fair share of pain...

I agree. And if someone lead by example imagine what the outcome could be.

Just imagine... Cowen caps bankers pay at 150k. He then caps TDs pays at 60k. Ministerial pay is reduced accordingly. He then leads by example and announces that he won't be taking his ministerial salary for the next two years. Would the people follow him? You bet they would. Will it happen? Not likely. It's a pity as they have a real chance to take the people with them if only they'd show some leadership.

 

[Padraigb]

...Surely the dole could be cut by 50 euros a week to 150 euros.....it wasn`t that long ago that it was about that amount.Also the other forms of welfare like pensioners and carers etc could take a similiar cut....The minimum wage will have to be reduced as well,down to about 5 euros.Then we can have benchmarking looking down,instead of everyone trying to match the salaries above them. ...I propse a 90% tax on evry gov pension on the balance above 50,000.

I suspect that you are not any form of SW support, and don't expect to be, are paid above minimum wage, and are not in the public service. This post looks to me like yet another case of "let somebody else take the pain".

 

[Complainer]

I must have imagined all those pay cuts happening in the private sector.

This is exactly why it is essential that additional revenue requirements are raised through the tax system. If you are earning more, you pay more. If you are earning less, you pay less.

 

[shanegl]

When taxes are raised, this will be a second cut for many. The PS are not the only ones to have suffered a pay cut.

 

[Padraigb]

When taxes are raised, this will be a second cut for many.

Sure. And there might be need for a third cut, too. The government (any government that we might elect) has very little room for manoeuvre.

The best thing you can do is get ready. Organise your personal finances on the assumption that you will need to manage your life with less money.

 

[shanegl]

I agree entirely. However, Complainer seems to think that the PS is special and has already taken their (un)fair share of the pain.

 

[liaconn]

So you have no idea if what ICTU is claiming is possible or not, you are just repeating their talking points? If you take even 5 minutes to look at the figures you'll quickly realise that it's not possible. I could outline why if you don't believe me.

The plan is being presented to get the Government back into talks. David Begg has said himself that its not perfect but is the best that can be offered in the absence of any coherent plan from Government. And this is what we need. A coherent, objective plan with input from all parties including opposing political parties ie putting the economy before votes. At present the Govt is still indulging its cronyism tendencies. The appointment of Richie Boucher is proof of that.

Out of curiosity, are you saying bankers and developers shouldn't have to pay for their recklessness with our money?

 

[diarmuidc]

The plan is being presented to get the Government back into talks. David Begg has said himself that its not perfect but is the best that can be offered in the absence of any coherent plan from Government. And this is what we need. A coherent, objective plan with input from all parties including opposing political parties ie putting the economy before votes. At present the Govt is still indulging its cronyism tendencies. The appointment of Richie Boucher is proof of that.

I have heard David Begg (a director of the Central Bank for years BTW) say that their plan is more about "fairness" than anything else, basically admitting that their 10 point plan is next to useless in closing the deficit

Out of curiosity, are you saying bankers and developers shouldn't have to pay for their recklessness with our money?

Bankers and developers should be responsible for their actions. If they committed crimes they should be punished according to the law. No more no less. If the companies they worked for has made huge losses on the back of their actions, the company owners or shareholders should demand their resignation. However as I am neither a shareholder or owner of a bank I am not in a position to demand anything of them. If the government is coming in to support the banks with my tax money I expect to see the required changes in management to ensure the guys who made this mess do not get rewarded for it or are not involved with the running of the banks in the future. This is the governments responsibilty (god help us)

Apart from that, I really don't care about them. The damage is now done, the next goal is to get out of the situation we are in. Taking out all the bankers/developers in the morning and shooting them will make no difference to the huge budget deficit.

 

[Complainer]

I have heard David Begg (a director of the Central Bank for years BTW) say that their plan is more about "fairness" than anything else, basically admitting that their 10 point plan is next to useless in closing the deficit

Congratulations on putting two and two together to get two hundred and seventeen. Let's hope the dept finance guys are better at their sums than you.

Good analysis of the pensions levy from two Trinity academics at http://www.tascnet.ie/upload/public_service_pension_levy_1.pdf

 

[diarmuidc]

Congratulations on putting two and two together to get two hundred and seventeen. Let's hope the dept finance guys are better at their sums than you.

Petty insults like this just makes you look foolish. Your post makes little sense in the context of this discussion

 

[Complainer]

When taxes are raised, this will be a second cut for many.

For how many will it be a second cut?

Petty insults like this just makes you look foolish. Your post makes little sense in the context of this discussion

OK - let me be less obtuse.

I have heard David Begg (a director of the Central Bank for years BTW) say that their plan is more about "fairness" than anything else, basically admitting that their 10 point plan is next to useless in closing the deficit

Can you please clarify how you came to the conclusion that the 10-point plan is 'next to useless' from his comment regarding fairness? There is no logical connection between the two.

 

[DerKaiser]

Congratulations on putting two and two together to get two hundred and seventeen. Let's hope the dept finance guys are better at their sums than you.

Good analysis of the pensions levy from two Trinity academics at http://www.tascnet.ie/upload/public_service_pension_levy_1.pdf

Thanks Complainer, that is a good paper. I wonder whether there are such clear thinkers in the Dept of finance?

The point I take from it is that new taxation measures such as the levy need to be thought through more clearly if they are to be introduced.

Personally I would have thought that any savings can be introduced using our existing taxation system or by cutting wages rather than reinventing our taxation and public sector pay system with hasty measures.

 

[Teatime]

I wasn't aware 'I' was suddenly 'the Government'.

They should study ICTU's ten point plan and get back into talks to ensure that the ordinary workers do not carry the entire can through job losses, pay cuts and levies while the wealthy, including bankers and developers escape unscathed. This would require significant input from tax experts, economists etc who are far better qualified than 'I' to work out the fine details. Like everyone else, I am just intelligent enough to realise that there is something very wrong about the ordinary man on the street suffering while the people who caused the problem appear to be getting off scot free. I don't mind 'sharing the pain' if it gets the country back on its feet, I do mind the fact that some people seem to be hogging all the painkillers and leaving the rest of us to suffer.

It's a fair point and I think there is enough momentum at present to 'go after' the bankers and developers etc but we'll still be in the same financial mess when these guys & dolls get their just desserts.

My private sector employer is feeling the pinch at the moment has is putting measures in place to address the shortfalls (pay cuts, redundancies). We all have to grin and bear it and hope we survive the lean years.

The government is an employer. It is putting measures in place to address the shortfalls within its own workplace and there is massive resistance. It is only a starting point and maybe PS employees feel targetted but I think it will balance itself out very very soon.

 

[Bronte]

However as I am neither a shareholder or owner of a bank

Are you sure you aren't a part owner of Anglo Irish?

 

[diarmuidc]

Can you please clarify how you came to the conclusion that the 10-point plan is 'next to useless' from his comment regarding fairness? There is no logical connection between the two.

It was a Matt Cooper interview, on each point he was challenged as to how much tax revenue it would raise, on each occasion he claimed that it was more about fairness and he couldn't specify how much it would raise.. You can go and download their [broken link removed], but it's basically a summary of their talking points that you will hear in any David Begg interview. In it they mention the standard tax levies on "wealthy" people etc. but there isn't a single indication of how much tax revenues their plan will raise.

In 2008 €13bn was raised in income tax, with 6.5% of the population paying half this. So lets say this 6.5% are the wealthy and we increase their tax burden by 30%, at the best case scenario this will net €2bn. How is this going to plug a €10+bn deficit? This is the tax take in 2008 (in m€)

Excise Duties € 5,581.00
Captial Gains € 1,710.00
Stamp Duties € 1,780.00
Income Tax € 13,200.00
Corporation Tax € 6,000.00
VAT € 13,525.00
Non Tax € 808.00
Other € 576.00

Where are you going to get a couple of billion from this?

Are you sure you aren't a part owner of Anglo Irish?

True, I forgot about that unfortunate purchase.

 

[shanegl]

For how many will it be a second cut?

More than zero. Many more than zero. Everyone who lost their job will most likely get hit too with lower welfare payments. Making a mockery of this statement:

No, if they dare to hit the PS with two cuts when everyone else gets hit with one, we'll show them the error of their ways.

The gist of which states 'we're not taking a pay cut till everyone else does'.

You and others with this line of thinking need to reconcile the dual nature of the government as both your employer and the taxman.

Like many other employers they have cut the wages of their employees. Some workers in the country aren't going to get hit, some are still getting pay rises. I suggest public sector workers deal with this reality. More power to them, their companies are obviously still doing well and should be commended for their hard work in contributing to the exchequer.

This isn't a socialist paradise yet.