Why can't the Government get a message out properly

[Sunny]

This debacle over the pensions levy for the public service is yet another fine example of the imcompetence of this Government in even the most basic of communication skills, never mind economic management.

We had the leader of our Country stand up in the Dail and read off a prepared statement on a project that they must have been working on for weeks if not months. He then announces that public sector workers are going to pay 3-10% of their salary and this will save the exchequer €1.4 billion a year. Not only is it extremely poor that the first that the workers involved hear about this is on tv (At least private sector employers in the main have the decency to tell the people involved first) but they then cause panic and allow headlines to be created about the cost of the levy to ordinary public sectors without also announcing that the scheme was open to tax relief. Of course this also meant that the €1.4 billion saving to the public finances was a complete lie. Apparently it is only about €900 million. I am not even going to go into the fairness of someone on a major six figure salary effectively paying the same levy as someone on an ordinary wage.

By the way, this isn't about public sector pay or workers etc so don't drag this thread off topic in light of the ceasefire (great idea mods!). This is just about how are we supposed to get out of this mess with such as a blatantly incompetent Government. And I would also love to meet their media and communications advisors.

 

[Shawady]

Apparently it is only about €900 million.

It actually might be as low as €750 billion according to one paper this morning, and that will more than likelybe wiped out by increase in social unemployment benefits.

They should have just cut gross salaries by 7.5%. It would have the same effect but at least it would have brought in public sector pensioners. I'm surprised there has not been more made about this in the media (and AAM).
The pension bill is approx 2 billion so 7.5% of that is 150 million. After tax relief this may only be closer to 100 miilion but if you add it up over Cowen's 5 year plan it would amount to a saving of half a billion.
Cutting gross salary would also reduce public sector pensions in the future.

 

[Sunny]

I don't really want to discuss pay. Its more of the way the Government is doing things. Everytime the Government makes a decision, it seems that 24 hours later it has been torn to shreds. Look at the last budget. Its like they are unable to think things through properly. They say they knew about the hit on income tax and budgeted for it but why then announce savings of €1.4 billion. Its either incompetence or a rubbish attempt at spin. In these times, both are equally as bad and worrying.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Completely agree. Another thing is the fact they can't remain strong once they decide on something. Even yesterday Cowen was saying he is prepared to tweak the plan to suit the social partners if they can agree on changes - what is the point of having a plan if you can't implement it? It's like the October budget all over again.

 

[dewdrop]

Surely it cant be spin as highlighting the tax relief would have lessened the impact. Please someone assure me it is not plain stupidity

 

[Caveat]

It's beyond pathetic. I feel embarrassed to think that any other country would witness this shambolic amateurism. I'm honestly really worried if this is how our government reacts under pressure.

 

[DublinTexas]

I think it comes down to them being weak and cowardly. But that is my personal opinion.

In respect of the inablity of the goverment to communicate effectivly I think the problem is with the staff. The communication skills of our leaders is really bad and because of the fear of riots (which I think are not to far away) or other consequences they do try to communicate in outlines rather specifics.

The fact is that also the outdated rules in the Dail allow the goverment to get away with it.

It is better to announce a 1.4 billion saving loud to everybody and when the problems with the unions start to than tell them, don't worry we had to say that to save face, in reality you are getting tax relief on it, so it's not that bad.

Maybe we should collect some € and send them on an efficent communication training.

 

[NorthDrum]

I honestly couldnt say what the government is doing right or wrong. The repurcussions of what they do now or dont do, will not be seen for awhile.

In relation to the first post I think a major problem for the government at the moment is their lack of clarity and inability to instill confidence in the public (obviously they arent communicating properly with the public).

One thing I would point out is that I seriously doubt that anybody could get everything right. Its easy to jump on the difficult decisions they have made and say they could of done it this way or that way. The truth is that no matter what they do know people will call for the heads. The benefits of any potential stimulus or tax saving package wont be seen until well down the road. People in this country dont want long term solutions or long term savings until its too late, they simply want for their interests to be looked after. I have said it before, a government mirrors its people.

Theres alot of anger out there because of the money wasted during the "celtic years". I understand this, but this is similar anger that is vented towards the bankers, again justified. But the problem I have is that none of this is going to get the country back on track. You sort out the problem first and then root out the cowards and the criminals. People have mentioned the term accountability which is ironic considering the fact that nobody in this country is actually taking responsibility for the decisions they have made. Nobody made people buy houses, rack up debth or not save (SSIA's should of thought people to save).

Nobody is giving any suggestion, the government make, a chance. If its hitting somebody elses pocket then of course you are on board, if its your kitty thats reduced then lets call for the governments head and jump on popular opinion on why they are wrong. Its not just our country and our government thats struggling with this outbreak of economic turmoil. The grass is always greener elsewhere.

We all have our role to play in this debacle, but so many people are blaming everybody else and crying foul when the recession actually brushes off their steps.

Im not a fianna failer (have no ties to the party and never voted for them) and have personally been affected by the recession.

Until we start working together as a nation we will simply be a bunch of self invested interest groups moaning about who should be hit the worst in this crisis . .

 

[Sunny]

I suppose I should be fair and point out the muppets in opposition are no better. Why FG decided it would be good policy to make a political football out of public sector pay, I have no idea. Can none of these parties realise that the Country has been crying out for direction and strategy. I am willing to bet that people will support painful decisons and policy if they can see some sort of plan and logic. All we are getting now is incompetence from the Government and the usual political waffle from the oppostion parties. Time for someone to stand up and lead.
Anyone know how difficult it is to set up a political party?? (not suggesting me as leader by the way!)

 

[Ceist Beag]

Time for someone to stand up and lead.

This is exactly the point. Personally I would be willing to take whatever bad news was announced by the government in terms of tax increases or whatever if I had faith that they could show strength and leadership to lead us out of this mess. As things stand I don't have any faith in that - they seem more concerned with trying to appease everyone than trying to lead us.

 

[Sunny]

I honestly couldnt say what the government is doing right or wrong. The repurcussions of what they do now or dont do, will not be seen for awhile.

In relation to the first post I think a major problem for the government at the moment is their lack of clarity and inability to instill confidence in the public (obviously they arent communicating properly with the public).

One thing I would point out is that I seriously doubt that anybody could get everything right. Its easy to jump on the difficult decisions they have made and say they could of done it this way or that way. The truth is that no matter what they do know people will call for the heads. The benefits of any potential stimulus or tax saving package wont be seen until well down the road. People in this country dont want long term solutions or long term savings until its too late, they simply want for their interests to be looked after. I have said it before, a government mirrors its people.

Theres alot of anger out there because of the money wasted during the "celtic years". I understand this, but this is similar anger that is vented towards the bankers, again justified. But the problem I have is that none of this is going to get the country back on track. You sort out the problem first and then root out the cowards and the criminals. People have mentioned the term accountability which is ironic considering the fact that nobody in this country is actually taking responsibility for the decisions they have made. Nobody made people buy houses, rack up debth or not save (SSIA's should of thought people to save).

Nobody is giving any suggestion, the government make, a chance. If its hitting somebody elses pocket then of course you are on board, if its your kitty thats reduced then lets call for the governments head and jump on popular opinion on why they are wrong. Its not just our country and our government thats struggling with this outbreak of economic turmoil. The grass is always greener elsewhere.

We all have our role to play in this debacle, but so many people are blaming everybody else and crying foul when the recession actually brushes off their steps.

Im not a fianna failer (have no ties to the party and never voted for them) and have personally been affected by the recession.

Until we start working together as a nation we will simply be a bunch of self invested interest groups moaning about who should be hit the worst in this crisis . .

I agree with alot of what you say but the problem is that for us to work together as a nation, we need something or someone to rally around. The leaders of the Country should be providing this rallying point but they are not. This creates a vacum where people are fearful and struggling and looking for someone to blame because they can't see a way out. As someone above said, this could well lead to social unrest sooner rather than later unless the Government and politicians in general start doing their job. I don't think anyone is looking for quick cures or fixes but we do need a roadmap. Not some wishy washy 'knowledge economy' roadmap and piecemeal annoucements that fail to stand up to any serious analysis.

 

[NorthDrum]

I suppose I should be fair and point out the muppets in opposition are no better. Why FG decided it would be good policy to make a political football out of public sector pay, I have no idea. Can none of these parties realise that the Country has been crying out for direction and strategy. I am willing to bet that people will support painful decisons and policy if they can see some sort of plan and logic. All we are getting now is incompetence from the Government and the usual political waffle from the oppostion parties. Time for someone to stand up and lead.
Anyone know how difficult it is to set up a political party?? (not suggesting me as leader by the way!)

Its funny because we all forget that its teachers, farmers, accountants, solicitors etc that are running the country not politicians. I was saying it to my wife that we just assume they know what they are doing (when times are good)!

As for the opposition parties . . My rabbit could make a better go of attacking the government then them. Personally I would love to see Richard Bruton as leader of FG, Kenny is a disaster.

 

[Caveat]

... they seem more concerned with trying to appease everyone...

The legacy of Bertie, the great appeaser.

I too would take any hit/bad news - within reason - just plan it, announce it and do it in one properly executed swoop. This back-pedaling and revising is excruciatingly cringeworthy. Stop dithering and stop worrying about union reaction.

 

[NorthDrum]

I agree with alot of what you say but the problem is that for us to work together as a nation, we need something or someone to rally around. The leaders of the Country should be providing this rallying point but they are not. This creates a vacum where people are fearful and struggling and looking for someone to blame because they can't see a way out. As someone above said, this could well lead to social unrest sooner rather than later unless the Government and politicians in general start doing their job. I don't think anyone is looking for quick cures or fixes but we do need a roadmap. Not some wishy washy 'knowledge economy' roadmap and piecemeal annoucements that fail to stand up to any serious analysis.

I know, I agree, its just disheartening to see everybody pull each other apart out of fear and distrust.

Personally I have suggested to those I know in FF that Cowan needs to make an address to the nation to discuss what has happened, what is happening and where he hopes things will go. Come clean, nobody expects all the answers. Not knowing if they understand how to fix this problem is as bad as the problem itself . . (this is where the leadership chip comes into affect) . . I dont want to hear anybody call for Bertie to come back, he got us into this mess . .

I also suggested somewhere else that all parties to treat this like a time of war and lock heads to come up with a solution. Look at the panic in the country, its getting to the stage where people are going to line the streets. Sometimes this is good, but does anybody think that ousting FF for a FG-Lab coalition is going to automatically make things better! And at what cost will this be to our economy, wasting months preparing for an election!

 

[sandrat]

I think it is the way that they announce things that is the problem, they create confusion it doesnt matter if we agree with what they are doing its just that it takes details so long to be made clear. He could announce in the morning that he is going to cut costs by getting rid of all the newborns in the country and eventually is will come out that he means first borns and that by getting rid of he meant not paying childrens allowance to any new baby born after 1st June.

Joan Burton was on Vincent Browne last night and she said that when he announced the levy people were asking other members of FF if they levy had tax relief or not and they didn't even know. Cowen is running the country as he sees fit and not even explaining it to the rest of his party by the sounds of things.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Sunny, it immediately struck me when I heard BC first, "was this before or after tax?" I posted the question on AAM within 5 mins. Gilmore then asked the question, BC answered that the levy was on gross salary, still left me confused though on balance I thought the term "levy" rather than "contribution" suggested no tax relief.

On the other point of calling this 1.4Bn savings in expenditure. That is correct in my view. For example they announced savings in professional fees and payments for projects. These too carry a sting in the tail in that there is the loss of tax on them, but you wouldn't expect these to be netted down in the statement of savings on expenditure, would you? The fact is that it is not possible to state accurately the net effect on the deficit (which is what matters in the end) because of multiplier effects.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

And another thing, slightly off topic. A bit disingenuous for the Unions to say the proposal was presented at the eleventh hour. Obviously the bearded ones don't read the Sunday Times for it published the details almost to the letter on the previous Sunday.

 

[sandrat]

And another thing, slightly off topic. A bit disingenuous for the Unions to say the proposal was presented at the eleventh hour. Obviously the bearded ones don't read the Sunday Times for it published the details almost to the letter on the previous Sunday.

weren't they in talks for all hours, probably no time to read the papers

 

[Sunny]

Sunny, it immediately struck me when I heard BC first, "was this before or after tax?" I posted the question on AAM within 5 mins. Gilmore then asked the question, BC answered that the levy was on gross salary, still left me confused though on balance I thought the term "levy" rather than "contribution" suggested no tax relief.

On the other point of calling this 1.4Bn savings in expenditure. That is correct in my view. For example they announced savings in professional fees and payments for projects. These too carry a sting in the tail in that there is the loss of tax on them, but you wouldn't expect these to be netted down in the statement of savings on expenditure, would you?

I take your points but surely if you are going to announce something like this you make sure it is announced in a clear way to avoid panic and confusion. Its a pretty basic concept in theory. Why do they make everything sound so difficult.

I accept your point about the €1.4 billion and the other cuts. However, they were going around saying that they reduced the public sector pay bill by on average of 7% and that higher earners in the public sector will see their pay down by nearly 10% which is turns out is not the case. Its about half those savings on a net basis. They could have announced the tax relief to stop the headlines that appeared on every media outlet showing massive drops in salaries.
I wonder whether they were not keen to publicise the tax relief because it confirmed the Unions opinion that it hit the lower earners disproportionaly when you look past the highlights.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I do agree it was a most botched and incompetent communication exercise, though I wouldn't give them any credit for deliberately trying to create misleading spin.