The Lisbon vote

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Surely that's more democratic (one man one vote) not less

It's not in Ireland's interest or in the interest of any of the smaller countries, Lisbon is a power grab by the bigger states. Most voters aren't aware of how Lisbon drastically reduces Ireland's voting strength. Such information doesn't appear in the DFA booklet or any of the political party pro-Lisbon leaflets I've seen, no mention of any trade-off or downside. If Lisbon were passed after a robust, honest and open debate then fine. But the Yes men don't want the people to understand what's in the treaty. It's depressing really.

 

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

The reason we will end up paying water charges is to pay for benchmarking.

Anything agreed or passed by QMV at EU level is effectively set in stone. No government we elect can undo any such EU laws or regulations.

Do bear in mind that I am a pro-EU social liberal with a strong dislike for nationalism but have strong Republican tendencies (but not the stupid intellectually vacuous Irish nationalist brand).

If Lisbon is pushed through you may as well forget your (intelligent intellectually worthy, no doubt ) Republican tendencies as Ireland will be more an EU province than a Republic.

 

[Purple]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Anything agreed or passed by QMV at EU level is effectively set in stone. No government we elect can undo any such EU laws or regulations.

I am in favour of water charges, and other environmental taxes) as long as there is a mechanism in place to help those on low incomes.

If Lisbon is pushed through you may as well forget your (intelligent intellectually worthy, no doubt ) Republican tendencies as Ireland will be more an EU province than a Republic.

As long as the EU is a republic I will be happy to be part of the United States of Europe.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I heard RTE advertising its Lisbon website and I gave it a go.

It features 5 video head to heads on the "issues". You just need to look at the respective teams to make up your mind.

The NO consisted of a variety of looney tunes from Mary Lou to Joe Higgins.

The Yes side only feature one nutter, a Deirdre de Burgha, who worried me a little by insisting that the LB was super green. Thankfully my fears were assuaged by Patricia McKenna who insists the EU will be no more green with LB than without.

 

[Simeon]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I am in favour of water charges, and other environmental taxes) as long as there is a mechanism in place to help those on low incomes.

As long as the EU is a republic I will be happy to be part of the United States of Europe.

Ditto.

 

[Caveat]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I am a pro-EU social liberal with a strong dislike for nationalism but have strong Republican tendencies (but not the stupid intellectually vacuous Irish nationalist brand).

Now if only that could be distilled into a snappy acronym or something...

 

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I am in favour of water charges, and other environmental taxes) as long as there is a mechanism in place to help those on low incomes.

Water charges, specifically, are not the point, but rather that decisions become set in stone and no government we elect can change them (at home, if you will)

As long as the EU is a republic I will be happy to be part of the United States of Europe.

You'll be voting Yes with your eyes open, can't argue with that. My issue is that many people, rather than find out for themselves, will 'trust' the politicians (who are hiding that Lisbon creates an EU State of which we all become citizens, the power transfer to Brussels, militarisation, tax implications etc). Do you not agree that the politicians are more concerned with passing Lisbon, whatever it takes, than with explaining what it contains and what the trade-offs are? I suppose I just favour a Europe which is about ease of travel and fair trade rather than the Lisbon super-state model, and that we should retain the ability to elect an Irish government that can make or repeal laws for Ireland and which are relevant to Irish citizens.

 

[csirl]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by csirl http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=616688#post616688
Where do you start? The EU Commission is not elected, yet it makes decisions that should have democratic accountability. The seats in the EU Parliament are not allocated evenly - some countries have more seats per population that others (I know Ireland is one of these, but that doesnt make it right). Also some countries with similar populations e.g. France & Poland, do not have a similar number of seats. There is also an attitude that if something wont fly with the Parliament, which has some democratic accountability, then just use the Commission to get it done. I know some people will argue that the Commission is appointed by various Governments etc. etc. and therefore is democratic because the Governments were elected. But I think that this argument is weak as the Commission is too many degrees of separation away from any sort of democratic accountability to make it democratic.

The Labour Party webpage on [broken link removed] makes a good riposte to that.

Quote:
The Reform Treaty gives a greater role for the Oireachtas and other national parliaments in screening new proposals. If nine parliaments believe a proposal breaches the subsidiarity principle, whereby decisions must be taken as close as possible to the citizen, the Commission must explain it further or table a redraft. If 15 have such concerns and if either half the Member States or MEPs agree,the proposal falls.
95% of European laws, including justice and home affairs issues for the first time, become subject toamendment or veto by MEPs ('co-decision').
It provides for greater transparency by insisting that national ministers meeting in Council mustmeet in public when discussing and adopting laws.
All EU spending, including agricultural spending for the first time, must be approved by MEPs.
It provides for a 'Citizens Initiative' whereby one million EU citizens can request action by the EU inareas of EU competence.
It provides for the election of the European Commission President and the appointment of theCommission by the European Parliament. EU Prime Ministers will continue to nominate the candidate for Commission President but must take account of the political balance arising from the preceding European Parliament elections (e.g. if the Socialist Group emerges as the largest group in theEP after the June 2009 elections, the next nominee for Commission President is likely to be a socialist). These changes will make it clear that the Commission is not an 'unaccountable bureaucracy' butan executive dependent on the continued confidence of MEPs, who can dismiss it.
It ensures that small countries like Ireland will continue to enjoy a disproportionate weight withinthe Council and the Parliament.
It provides for regular talks between the European level Social Partners and for a structured dialoguebetween the EU and civic society, including religious and non-confessional organisations.

You've actually proven one of the points that I have for voting no i.e. that it is not democratic as not every EU citizen has an equal say.

It ensures that small countries like Ireland will continue to enjoy a disproportionate weight withinthe Council and the Parliament.

 

[csirl]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

A lot of pro-Yes people are going around saying that we should vote Yes because the EU has been good to Ireland to date.

I see this as a reason to vote No. If the EU, as it currently stands, is good for Ireland, I see no reason to change it.

I also have issue with all the Yes people scaremongering and giving people the impression that we have to vote Yes or we will be kicked out of the EU. This is not a referendum on Ireland's EU membership and Ireland will still be in the EU even if we vote no.

The world will not stop if we vote no. Plenty of other EU members have rejected things in the past and the world still turns. People like the UK, who have been members as long as us, havent even got the Euro yet.

 

[television]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Any low born, ill-educated badly connected citizen (like me) can become the leader of the country. All one has to do is work your ass off for years in the background before seeking election to a very insecure high pressure job

Do you seriously think that is the case purple. Yes its possible but not very. look at the political family dynasties in this country and tell me how easy it is for the average ill educated person to get anywhere in politics.

You say you understand the term Hegagmony. Your last post on the topic does not really suggest you do.

 

[Purple]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Do you seriously think that is the case purple. Yes its possible but not very. look at the political family dynasties in this country and tell me how easy it is for the average ill educated person to get anywhere in politics.

You say you understand the term Hegagmony. Your last post on the topic does not really suggest you do.

Our current President and last prime minister were not part of a political dynasty. The fact that some families are politically active will make it more likely that their members will become politicians. Without such families our democracy would not work. Such families should be thanked for their public service, not subjected to innuendo and ridicule.
This does not mean that those who choose to enter politics cannot (or do not) do well without having well connected families.

 

[television]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

you really think we should thank those families? When their sons and daughters are promoted ahead of people of the same ability for nothing other than nepotism. Sorry I dont buy the public service argument either. And even if their motives are honourable it does not get away from the fact that they are promoted pushed into politics because of family ties. That is not democratic. it is how ruling classes have always emerged through history. Also retoric such as yours Purple ie.,

The fact that some families are politically active will make it more likely that their members will become politicians.
Without such families our democracy would not work. Such families should be thanked for their public service, not subjected to innuendo and ridicule.

Allows this abuse of power to continue unchecked and go unquestioned.

 

[television]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

This does not mean that those who choose to enter politics cannot (or do not) do well without having well connected families.
__________________

But it makes it considerably harder all other things being equal.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

How many of the current crop of Govt Ministers had a parent as TD or Senator? Only a few by my count - Lenihan, Coughlan, Hanafin, Cowen. Any more?

 

[television]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

How many of the current crop of Govt Ministers had a parent as TD or Senator? Only a few by my count - Lenihan, Coughlan, Hanafin, Cowen. Any more?

By your own rationale thats 27% of the current cabinate. Or are you being ironic?

 

[television]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Add eamon O Cuive brings it up to 33%

 

[Purple]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

By your own rationale thats 27% of the current cabinate. Or are you being ironic?

I think that all of the above have shown the ability to hold the office that they do. Any government which was constructed based on nepotism would not last long.

 

[television]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Your not getting my point. Yes they all have ability but they all happpen to be from political families and overall that is not good for democracy as it places power in the hands of an elete few. Several kings in history had ability is that a reason to uphold monarchy?

If we are being realistic here these sons and daughters of politicans are being gentley nugged throughout thier life in the right direction and given that ever so slightly wink and a nod and a little bit of help. their qualities pushed to the fore by politically powerful parents and associates while their failings ignored. Trouble is that equation is reversed for thier political compeditors in thier own parties. All the while the matra of "hes/shes got there throught their own ability not throught parental support" is being spouted.

 

[Purple]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Your not getting my point. Yes they all have ability but they all happpen to be from political families and overall that is not good for democracy as it places power in the hands of an elete few. Several kings in history had ability is that a reason to uphold monarchy?

If we are being realistic here these sons and daughters of politicans are being gentley nugged throughout thier life in the right direction and given that ever so slightly wink and a nod and a little bit of help. their qualities pushed to the fore by politically powerful parents and associates while their failings ignored. Trouble is that equation is reversed for thier political compeditors in thier own parties. All the while the matra of "hes/shes got there throught their own ability not throught parental support" is being spouted.

You are ignoring the fact that they have to stand for election by the people.
Are you suggesting that the children of politicians should be barred from standing for public office? If not then your gripe is the fact that the majority of people are too lazy or apathetic to get involved. That's not the fault of those who do get involved.
Ironically those who are politically active would be the first to welcome more interest from the general public but putting up election posters on rainy evenings and knocking on doors to get abused by disgruntled punters during elections and giving up your evenings a few times a month the rest of the year for local party meetings is the reality for most party members.
There are a number of posters on AAM who do this, one in particular that I am aware of, and I feel nothing but gratitude toward them for doing something that I am not willing to do.

 

[diarmuidc]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Do you seriously think that is the case purple. Yes its possible but not very. look at the political family dynasties in this country and tell me how easy it is for the average ill educated person to get anywhere in politics.

They still have to be voted in!

Lisbon is a power grab by the bigger states. .

Can you spell out exactly what you mean here?