The Lisbon vote

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

What would ACTUALLY happen if Ireland or indeed any of the 27 member states failed to ratify the Treaty?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

same as what happens the last time. irish politicians say "people did not understand the treaty first time round lets give them another chance a year later" and in the mean time scaremonger about the consequences if we vote no a second time. thats democracy EU style.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

But at an EU level - is there a Plan B? Or have they ignored the possibility, just like they did for the constitution? Would we end up with a further cut down version of the original constitution put forward for ratification in a few years? Or would we end up with a 'two tier' europe?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

the eu is on a course to further integration and privitisation. nothing is going to stop that. this treaty is rubbing staping that agenda.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

rmelly said:
Can I ask why? Ignoring the not siding with loonies, anti scaremongering etc. What about the Treaty are you in favour of?
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Basically, the Treaty will enable a smoother operation of the enlarged union. There's nothing in it that I disagree with. The scaremongering is unjustified.

From the SWP website:
"The Lisbon Treaty lays the basis for a further extension of privatisation. It calls for a system in the ‘internal market’ to ensure ‘that competition is not distorted’ and calls for ‘uniformity in measures of liberalisation.’"

That's a big leap to privatisation they're taking there. Not that I'd have a problem with it anyway.

No distortion of competition, uniform liberalisation? Sounds great. Bring it on! :D

That's an excellent set of rebuttals on the Labour website.

There will probably be a No vote though.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

csirl said:
Where do you start? The EU Commission is not elected, yet it makes decisions that should have democratic accountability. The seats in the EU Parliament are not allocated evenly - some countries have more seats per population that others (I know Ireland is one of these, but that doesnt make it right). Also some countries with similar populations e.g. France & Poland, do not have a similar number of seats. There is also an attitude that if something wont fly with the Parliament, which has some democratic accountability, then just use the Commission to get it done. I know some people will argue that the Commission is appointed by various Governments etc. etc. and therefore is democratic because the Governments were elected. But I think that this argument is weak as the Commission is too many degrees of separation away from any sort of democratic accountability to make it democratic.
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The Labour Party webpage on [broken link removed] makes a good riposte to that.

The Reform Treaty gives a greater role for the Oireachtas and other national parliaments in screening new proposals. If nine parliaments believe a proposal breaches the subsidiarity principle, whereby decisions must be taken as close as possible to the citizen, the Commission must explain it further or table a redraft. If 15 have such concerns and if either half the Member States or MEPs agree,the proposal falls.
95% of European laws, including justice and home affairs issues for the first time, become subject toamendment or veto by MEPs ('co-decision').
It provides for greater transparency by insisting that national ministers meeting in Council mustmeet in public when discussing and adopting laws.
All EU spending, including agricultural spending for the first time, must be approved by MEPs.
It provides for a 'Citizens Initiative' whereby one million EU citizens can request action by the EU inareas of EU competence.
It provides for the election of the European Commission President and the appointment of theCommission by the European Parliament. EU Prime Ministers will continue to nominate the candidate for Commission President but must take account of the political balance arising from the preceding European Parliament elections (e.g. if the Socialist Group emerges as the largest group in theEP after the June 2009 elections, the next nominee for Commission President is likely to be a socialist). These changes will make it clear that the Commission is not an 'unaccountable bureaucracy' butan executive dependent on the continued confidence of MEPs, who can dismiss it.
It ensures that small countries like Ireland will continue to enjoy a disproportionate weight withinthe Council and the Parliament.
It provides for regular talks between the European level Social Partners and for a structured dialoguebetween the EU and civic society, including religious and non-confessional organisations.
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?

rmelly said:
But what will Charlie McCreevy do then? A yes vote is putting him out of a job - shame on you all.
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Strangely enough this is actually a good point. Charlie is the one fighting against tax harmonisation in Europe.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

diarmuidc said:
Because any amendments to the Irish [Constitution] require a referendum.
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Indeed. The DFA booklet poses the same generic (wrong) question and gives the same answer. i.e Q. Why are we having a referendum? A. Because a referendum is required when we want to change the Constitution. The correct question is; Q. Why does the Lisbon Treaty necessitate a referendum? A. The Lisbon Treaty dilutes Irish sovereignty and therefore requires one (as per the Crotty judgment).
rmelly said:
But at an EU level - is there a Plan B?
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Lisbon is Plan B. The Constitution was Plan A. A 'NO' may herald a second referendum or precipitate a Plan C; just maybe they'd take a step back and reconsider if Lisbon is what the peoples of Europe want rather than just what Politicians and Business interests want.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

shanegl said:
Basically, the Treaty will enable a smoother operation of the enlarged union. There's nothing in it that I disagree with. The scaremongering is unjustified.
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All the reasoning and facts in the world will not stop people from claiming that every and anything will be allowed by the Lisbon treaty. We may as well run with it. Don't you know that the Lisbon treaty will force the GAA to become a professional game and that Guinness will be banned?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

diarmuidc said:
We may as well run with it.
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The above would be just silly if it weren't one of the handful of core arguments for Lisbon - along with 'trust us', 'Europe is great' and 'a NO would be a disaster'. A reasoned debate based on facts would be welcome but we're unlikely to get that because it's such a bad deal for Ireland. I can't but think that committed Yes men are dismayed at the prospect of Joe Public wising up to what the Treaty is really about.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
I can't but think that committed Yes men are dismayed at the prospect of Joe Public wising up to what the Treaty is really about.
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Do you really think that Joe Public will take the time to make an informed decision either way?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
Do you really think that Joe Public will take the time to make an informed decision either way?
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I hope so, at least a sizable tranche anyway. People shouldn't sleepwalk into the polling booth; this may well be the most important vote of most peoples lives.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
I very much doubt that it will have any discernable impact on the lives of 95% of people.
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Not immediately. There is a time-lag before the effects of EU Treaties, Directives and Regulations are felt but by then it's too late as EU laws and decisions are effectively, from an Irish point of view, irreversible. e.g Next year mothers across Ireland will be baking cakes to raise money to pay for school water charges, which were demanded by the EU some years ago and regrettably agreed to by an Irish minister.

I read The Charter of Fundamental Rights to which we'll be signing up under Lisbon with no possibility of dropping it in the future; it's language is very woolly and we'll be stuck with whatever interpretation the European Court has of it.
Purple said:
. . that's why I like representative democracy.
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Really? Then how could you support Lisbon? Surely you see that Lisbon reduces Ireland's relative voting weight in the EU (from 1/4 of the bigger states to 1/15 - 1/20) while simultaneously handing many more areas over to the EU subject to QMV. Most of our laws will be handed down from Europe, if we don't like them then there's little we can do, regardless of who we elect they won't be able to change such laws, hardly representative.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

purple i am not saying or asking if you like. I am saying that this is what we have. A dominant political class who are using/fostering apathy to bring about change that is undemocratic. Dod you seriously think we have true representitive democracy accross Europe?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

television said:
purple i am not saying or asking if you like. I am saying that this is what we have. A dominant political class who are using/fostering apathy to bring about change that is undemocratic. Dod you seriously think we have true representitive democracy accross Europe?
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It's as representative as people want it to be. If the electorate choose not to participate that's not the fault of those who do. I am not politically active but I have the upmost respect for those who are, particularly at local party level. They are the lifeblood of our democracy and yet many of them are dismissed as hacks or self serving cronies. When this changes we will get better government, 'till then we are stuck with the one we deserve.
Hegemony presupposes that the plebs do not have the opportunity to become part of the ruling class. This is patently not the case in Ireland (or most other EU countries). Any low born, ill-educated badly connected citizen (like me) can become the leader of the country. All one has to do is work your ass off for years in the background before seeking election to a very insecure high pressure job. I for one know I’m not up to the job so I would not attempt it but that does not mean that I do not have the right to try if I am so inclined.

diarmuidc said:
Surely that's more democratic (one man one vote) not less
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You got there before me.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
Not immediately. There is a time-lag before the effects of EU Treaties, Directives and Regulations are felt but by then it's too late as EU laws and decisions are effectively, from an Irish point of view, irreversible. e.g Next year mothers across Ireland will be baking cakes to raise money to pay for school water charges, which were demanded by the EU some years ago and regrettably agreed to by an Irish minister.

I read The Charter of Fundamental Rights to which we'll be signing up under Lisbon with no possibility of dropping it in the future; it's language is very woolly and we'll be stuck with whatever interpretation the European Court has of it. Really? Then how could you support Lisbon? Surely you see that Lisbon reduces Ireland's relative voting weight in the EU (from 1/4 of the bigger states to 1/15 - 1/20) while simultaneously handing many more areas over to the EU subject to QMV. Most of our laws will be handed down from Europe, if we don't like them then there's little we can do, regardless of who we elect they won't be able to change such laws, hardly representative.
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The reason we will end up paying water charges is to pay for benchmarking. The government will use the EU as a smoke screen but the facts stand.

Most of our laws are not handed down from Europe. In fact none of our laws are handed down from Europe but they have to comply with EU court rulings. I cannot think of one incident where change which was forced upon us that has not proven to be positive, (or perhaps you think that homosexuality should still be a crime? ;)) Do bear in mind that I am a pro-EU social liberal with a strong dislike for nationalism but have strong Republican tendencies (but not the stupid intellectually vacuous Irish nationalist brand).
 
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