The Lisbon vote
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R
rmelly
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
Not true for the original constitution - a total of 9 countries held or planned to hold referendums
4 Referendums were run (Spain, Luxembourg, France and Netherlands), plus 5 additional ones were planned but aborted (Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Portugal, United Kingdom)
9 out of 27 for the constitution, down to 1 out of 27 for the Lisbon Treaty...sends a nice message to the people of Europe about the faith their leaders have in the peoples ability/right to determine their future.
Not true for the original constitution - a total of 9 countries held or planned to hold referendums
4 Referendums were run (Spain, Luxembourg, France and Netherlands), plus 5 additional ones were planned but aborted (Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Portugal, United Kingdom)
9 out of 27 for the constitution, down to 1 out of 27 for the Lisbon Treaty...sends a nice message to the people of Europe about the faith their leaders have in the peoples ability/right to determine their future.
television
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
no
no
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
I don't know about Denmark, Poland or Portugal but in the UK there is no need for a referendum to change the constitution (since the Queen in parliament is sovereign, rather than the constitution, and so parliament can change that constitution). So basically the UK referendum proposal was a PR exercise by Tony Blaire and not much else.
In Poland’s case there is no explicit mention of sovereignty so EU treaties do not require referenda (since they adopted their current constitution in 1997 this omission may have been deliberate).
I don't know about Denmark, Poland or Portugal but in the UK there is no need for a referendum to change the constitution (since the Queen in parliament is sovereign, rather than the constitution, and so parliament can change that constitution). So basically the UK referendum proposal was a PR exercise by Tony Blaire and not much else.
In Poland’s case there is no explicit mention of sovereignty so EU treaties do not require referenda (since they adopted their current constitution in 1997 this omission may have been deliberate).
R
rmelly
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
There may not be a 'need' for it, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one.
The numbers on the referendums for the constitution came from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty...itution_for_Europe#Ratification_of_the_Treaty
(Hope no one changes the contents...)
PR Exercise or not, it was planned...would he have ignored the result if they voted no, and gone ahead and ratified through parliament? If not then it wasn't a PR exercise. If he did ignore it his party would NEVER be elected again.
There may not be a 'need' for it, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one.
The numbers on the referendums for the constitution came from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty...itution_for_Europe#Ratification_of_the_Treaty
(Hope no one changes the contents...)
PR Exercise or not, it was planned...would he have ignored the result if they voted no, and gone ahead and ratified through parliament? If not then it wasn't a PR exercise. If he did ignore it his party would NEVER be elected again.
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
If there is no political or legal mechanism in a country to hold referenda then it is a very bad idea. Anything that dilutes the responsibility of elected leaders and diminishes their ability to lead (and be held to account for to account for their actions) is a bad thing.
If there is no political or legal mechanism in a country to hold referenda then it is a very bad idea. Anything that dilutes the responsibility of elected leaders and diminishes their ability to lead (and be held to account for to account for their actions) is a bad thing.
Duke of Marmalade
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
I agree with Purple again
.
Take the Brits, always flirting with the possibility of a referendum when a tough decision has to be made on say Europe or the Euro.
This is political cowardice, if the politicians believe that, say, the Euro is a good thing they should proceed rather than use a referendum to shield themselves from any perceived unpopularity of the decision.
Interesting though that the Brits are promised a Ref on the Euro whilst Dev's Bunreacht was unconcerned about such worldy matters as the money in our pocket.
I agree with Purple again
. Take the Brits, always flirting with the possibility of a referendum when a tough decision has to be made on say Europe or the Euro.
This is political cowardice, if the politicians believe that, say, the Euro is a good thing they should proceed rather than use a referendum to shield themselves from any perceived unpopularity of the decision.
Interesting though that the Brits are promised a Ref on the Euro whilst Dev's Bunreacht was unconcerned about such worldy matters as the money in our pocket.
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
Because it's a legal document that changes practically nothing in the EU. Granted SF/Libertas/some other fringe groups are trying to claim it as a threat to our ability to set our own tax rates, take our jobs and women etc... As Purple said, looking at who is opposing it is good enough for me to vote yes.
R
rmelly
Guest
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
Why the fuss over it then? Why even propose a Treary that does practically nothing?
Another good reason to vote against the Treaty. I'd rather the Dail lead - that's why we elected them, and they are accountable to us. Are the institutions of the EU?
Why the fuss over it then? Why even propose a Treary that does practically nothing?
Another good reason to vote against the Treaty. I'd rather the Dail lead - that's why we elected them, and they are accountable to us. Are the institutions of the EU?
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
What changes in particular do you not like?
Because any amendments to the Irish require a referendum. There's even a wikipedia page on the exact changes!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
What changes in particular do you not like?
R
rmelly
Guest
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
Hi, that's not what I asked - why is the Treaty itself required if it changes practically nothing - why is a few hundred pages required to change practically nothing?
Hi, that's not what I asked - why is the Treaty itself required if it changes practically nothing - why is a few hundred pages required to change practically nothing?
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
After a bit of research I've decided I'm voting Yes. The blatant scaremongering by the likes of Libertas have contributed to this decision as well. If I have to hear one more time about how we're "losing our commissioner" I think I might throw the radio out the window.
After a bit of research I've decided I'm voting Yes. The blatant scaremongering by the likes of Libertas have contributed to this decision as well. If I have to hear one more time about how we're "losing our commissioner" I think I might throw the radio out the window.
R
rmelly
Guest
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
But what will Charlie McCreevy do then? A yes vote is putting him out of a job - shame on you all.
But what will Charlie McCreevy do then? A yes vote is putting him out of a job - shame on you all.
R
rmelly
Guest
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
Can I ask why? Ignoring the not siding with loonies, anti scaremongering etc. What about the Treaty are you in favour of?
Can I ask why? Ignoring the not siding with loonies, anti scaremongering etc. What about the Treaty are you in favour of?
television
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
will this treaty lead to privitasition of public services such as schools health care etc? If so im voting no.
will this treaty lead to privitasition of public services such as schools health care etc? If so im voting no.
GeneralZod
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
No it won't.
Our domestic politicians are quite capable of doing that all by themselves if the fancy to do so takes them.
No it won't.
Our domestic politicians are quite capable of doing that all by themselves if the fancy to do so takes them.
television
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
OK believe the right wing argument for the treaty that says if crack pots in the left are voting against it then you should vote for. that stops you from actually looking into the treaty and makes it easier for creeping privitisation of public services.
Purple there is a move towards privitisation in education and health policy in europe. this move is being supported by big business who see the money to be made in these services.
if you intend to vote yes please do so because you understand the treaty and aggree with it. not because "if the crack pots in sinn fein and the socialists are voting NO i am going to vote yes argument" that really is facile. Of cource thats what the hegemonic powers that be would want you to think.
http://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/theory/marxism/terms/hegemony.html
there is plenty of evident that the treaty will lead to privitisation of key public services. Yes most is from radicle sources but i guess radicle sources are always wrong as history as shown.
http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/pages/socialist033mar08/2.html
and the left wing case for the treaty
[broken link removed]
OK believe the right wing argument for the treaty that says if crack pots in the left are voting against it then you should vote for. that stops you from actually looking into the treaty and makes it easier for creeping privitisation of public services.
Purple there is a move towards privitisation in education and health policy in europe. this move is being supported by big business who see the money to be made in these services.
if you intend to vote yes please do so because you understand the treaty and aggree with it. not because "if the crack pots in sinn fein and the socialists are voting NO i am going to vote yes argument" that really is facile. Of cource thats what the hegemonic powers that be would want you to think.
http://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/theory/marxism/terms/hegemony.html
there is plenty of evident that the treaty will lead to privitisation of key public services. Yes most is from radicle sources but i guess radicle sources are always wrong as history as shown.
http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/pages/socialist033mar08/2.html
and the left wing case for the treaty
[broken link removed]
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