The Lisbon vote

[Duke of Marmalade]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

What are the positives?

Fair question. My sense is that there is not much positive per se. These are the necessary rules for the proper working of the enlarged club. If you join a club you are asked to sign up to the rules. The rules themselves will be a rather negative document but you gladly sign up to them for the benefits that flow from the club.

Responsible polititicians correctly are not spelling out the dire consequences of a "No" vote. For example they daren't mention that we can forget any sympathy for the continuance of our tax haven status. Thankfully, the irresponsible polititicians are asking us to vote "No" so by coincidence these dire consequences become an unmentionable. But read between the lines, Bertie (and he now has little politically to gain) says "No" would be a disaster.

We are simply fooling and indulging ourselves if we think we have the option of saying No.

 

[ninsaga]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Of course the government could guarantee a yes result if they rolled out the electronic voting machines.....

 

[redstar]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I'm voting Yes - can't see any major reason why not. Too much scaremongering from the No side, most of which we have heard before previous treaty referenda.

Of course voting No is an option. France and Holland voted No to the Euro Constitution, and nothing bad happened to them. We got the Reform Treaty instead.

 

[shnaek]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

We are simply fooling and indulging ourselves if we think we have the option of saying No.

Then the referendum is a sham and a waste of money and should be outed as such. Nobody appreciates it when their government calls them morons (which is what our government are doing if we are having a referendum with only one possible outcome).

 

[noname]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

....................."No" would be a disaster.

My question is, Why would NO be a disaster? without a reason, I would consider this scaremongering.

I would like to point out, that I am pro Europe & have never voted SF, i just don't like being told to vote YES......"because, well, we (bertie, Enda & the rest) said so & you should trust us"

Of course the government could guarantee a yes result if they rolled out the electronic voting machines.....

yet another reason we should not always trust the all knowing politician

 

[Teabag]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

My question is, Why would NO be a disaster? without a reason, I would consider this scaremongering.

I would like to point out, that I am pro Europe & have never voted SF, i just don't like being told to vote YES......"because, well, we (bertie, Enda & the rest) said so & you should trust us"

Politicians have to take a position on it.

Shnaek is right though, prob a waste of time/money. But Irish people like saying 'No' so it will be tight.

 

[redstar]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

No harm in people voting no, but do it for informed reasons other than 'the politicians want us to vote yes'.

 

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

No harm in people voting no, but do it for informed reasons other than 'the politicians want us to vote yes'.

I agree with this. I believe that there is 'harm' in voting yes, but yes men (and ladies) should do it for informed reasons other than 'the politicians want us to vote yes'.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Then the referendum is a sham and a waste of money and should be outed as such.

Absolutely agree. Unfortunately Dev's Bunreacht seems to require it. Nobody else in Europe has this dubious right and nobody seems to be complaining too much.

 

[bond-007]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Absolutely agree. Unfortunately Dev's Bunreacht seems to require it. Nobody else in Europe has this dubious right and nobody seems to be complaining too much.

Time to scrap Dev's Bunreacht and modernise for the 21st century rather than his blinkered views from the 1930's where the church ran every facet of Irish life?

 

[noname]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

No harm in people voting no, but do it for informed reasons other than 'the politicians want us to vote yes'.

of course you are correct, "the politicians want us to vote yes, so I will vote no" is not the way this should be looked at.

However I do not want to agree to something that I don't understand, and yes, I will make an effort to understand the issues between now and polling day.

 

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Absolutely agree. Unfortunately Dev's Bunreacht seems to require it. Nobody else in Europe has this dubious right and nobody seems to be complaining too much.

Time to scrap Dev's Bunreacht and modernise for the 21st century rather than his blinkered views from the 1930's where the church ran every facet of Irish life?

Methinks you are too quick to dismiss the Irish Constitution. You will probably get your wish anyway as if there's a yes to Lisbon the Irish Constitution will be effectively obsolete.

 

[colin79ie]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Recently in Zimbabwe, There was an election. The president didn't like the outcome so he ordered a recount.

RING ANY BELLS????

 

[Purple]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Recently in Zimbabwe, There was an election. The president didn't like the outcome so he ordered a recount.

RING ANY BELLS????

I think you're being a bit selective with that one there colin

 

[cjh]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

My question is, Why would NO be a disaster? without a reason, I would consider this scaremongering.

NO would be a disaster (for bertie - because he'd never get that big job in europe)......

 

[S.L.F]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Recently in Zimbabwe, There was an election. The president didn't like the outcome so he ordered a recount.

I agree we've seen this once with the Nice Treaty.

My view on that was the score was 1-1 so they should have had a decider first to 2.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Time to scrap Dev's Bunreacht and modernise for the 21st century rather than his blinkered views from the 1930's where the church ran every facet of Irish life?

That's odd. My history teacher told me in school that the provision in the 1937 Bunreacht recognising the "special position" of the Catholic Church was abolished by referendum in the early 1970s. He must have been telling me a porky.

 

[bond-007]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

They may have removed it in 1973 but the churches influence still continues.

 

[rmelly]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

The 'dire consequences' of a rejection are most definitely being overplayed.

It is also important to note that we are the only country getting the opportunity to vote on the Treaty. Opinion polls in other countries suggest those not getting the opportunity to vote are not in favour of it, so maybe by us rejecting it there will be an across the board rethink, rather than a repackaging of the constitution.

What happened France and the Netherlands after rejecting the constitution? Did the 'great' experiment die? Was there a two tier Europe? Have these countries been ostracised?

The latest enlargement happened a few years ago, things haven't ground to a halt, so we can live without it being passed...

Plus it doesn't say much for our 'neighbours' and the EU as a whole if us exercising our democratic right in voting no was to result in us being ostracised, by-passed, ignored, made suffer etc - hardly what the founders had in mind...

 

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

. . it doesn't say much for our 'neighbours' and the EU as a whole if us exercising our democratic right in voting no was to result in us being ostracised, by-passed, ignored, made suffer etc - hardly what the founders had in mind...

A salient point.

The decisions to rerun defeated Danish and Irish referenda, to ignore the Dutch and French NO's to the EU Constitution and the denial of a referendum on Lisbon in 26 of the 27 EU member states should illustrate to all that the architects of the New EU have no intention of letting democracy/the people derail their EU Project. Lisbon is the point of no return for the peoples of Europe.