Letting off steam about the Health System

bradfield

Registered User
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Doing precisely what the post prescribes letting off steam!!!

I have a health issue which requires an ultrasound as part of the diagnosis.

It causes me practically constant pain which is bearable but not ideal.

My doctor referred me to the hosp for the test, I told the hosp that I would be going private and wanted to pay as l thought that this would mean that I could maybe get the test a bit sooner! After 6 weeks I today received an appointment for SEPTEMBER! It was going to cost me 115euro.

I got an appointment for next week in a private clinic for 135euro!!!!!!!!

What can you say!!!!!

B
 
Re: Health System

I can understand why that would be frustrating. The quality of service seems to be a lottery. Did you ring up the clinic on your own initiative or did your GP or someone in the hospital tell you about it. Is the private clinic covered by private medical insurance?
 
Re: Health System

I found the clinic on the internet it specialises in ultrasounds. They do Sat and Sun appointments. An ultrasound is an outpatient procedure which is not covered by the VHI anyway so that wasnt relevant! I just cant believe that it takes that long to get an appointment for an ultrasound that will only take about 15 mins to do! I am hoping that there is nothing seriously wrong but if there is then I want to know as soon as possible! Very frustrating!

B
 
Re: Health System

After 6 weeks I today received an appointment for SEPTEMBER! It was going to cost me 115euro.
What you needed there was a letter from your doctor for A&E to rule out something or other - also letter negates the €66 A&E charge. You probably would have had to spend half the day (or all day) there but the A&E doctor would say 'we'll need to get an ultrasound' which you'd get - no charge - and then you'd be sent off home with an outpatient appointment to see a relevant consultant.

It must be uniquely Irish where one is forced to pay 2% of salary into a public health system but said system is so unreliable that, if one can afford it, one also pays for private health insurance. Then there's a shortage of beds because, amongst other reasons, public hospitals rent beds to the private system. This increases waiting lists so to ease those, the Treatment Purchase Fund uses public money to pay for procedures in private hospitals for public patients; and the same consultants are working in both systems. You couldn't make this stuff up, if it wasn't so serious it would be funny.
 
Re: Health System

I got an appointment for next week in a private clinic for 135euro!!!!!!!!

You can get up to 41% of this refunded from Revenue, which makes it even cheaper.
 
Re: Health System

Doing precisely what the post prescribes letting off steam!!!

I have a health issue which requires an ultrasound as part of the diagnosis. It causes me practically constant pain which is bearable but not ideal. My doctor referred me to the hosp for the test, I told the hosp that I would be going private and wanted to pay as l thought that this would mean that I could maybe get the test a bit sooner! After 6 weeks I today received an appointment for SEPTEMBER! It was going to cost me 115euro.

I got an appointment for next week in a private clinic for 135euro!!!!!!!!

What can you say!!!!!

B
You’re making a very good argument for privatised healthcare.
 
Re: Health System

I am not against private health care being available as an option as long as along side it everyone can have confidence in a public health system that they are paying for a few times over!!!

In this instance I dont really care where I get the test done as long as I get it done!!!!! My peace of mind is shot and my back is constantly sore and painful! Hopefully its nothing serious but it could be and I am one of the lucky ones that I can actually afford to think this way for this particular test, I dont know what I would do if it were something like an MRI as I would not be able to afford that!
 
Re: Health System

I am not against private health care being available as an option as long as along side it everyone can have confidence in a public health system that they are paying for a few times over!!!

In this instance I dont really care where I get the test done as long as I get it done!!!!! My peace of mind is shot and my back is constantly sore and painful! Hopefully its nothing serious but it could be and I am one of the lucky ones that I can actually afford to think this way for this particular test, I dont know what I would do if it were something like an MRI as I would not be able to afford that!

Rest assured that all of the problems of the health service, at both a policy and operational level, are the fault of Mary Harney. Once she is gone it will be back to the great service we had before she took over. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Health System

I am not against private health care being available as an option as long as along side it everyone can have confidence in a public health system that they are paying for a few times over!!!

I don't see how the country would be any worse off, either from an economic prospective or overall health service provision, if we just scrapped the public health system in its entirety.

Let the private sector handle the health needs of everybody, with the government purchasing some form of basic health insurance to meet the needs of those without the means to purchase their own.

The role of the HSE then could be reduced to that of regulation rather than provision.
 
Re: Health System

Let the private sector handle the health needs of everybody, with the government purchasing some form of basic health insurance to meet the needs of those without the means to purchase their own.

The role of the HSE then could be reduced to that of regulation rather than provision.
This sounds remarkably like the Labour policy for Universal Health Insurance, but it seems like a cop-out to me. Why go for a system where the state is destined to pay a significant profit margin on top of the real cost. Why not address the underlying issues.

The private hospitals aren't without their faults, e.g. MRSA in Blackrock Clinic, cancer misdiagnosis in Barringtons etc.
 
Re: Health System

This sounds remarkably like the Labour policy for Universal Health Insurance, but it seems like a cop-out to me. Why go for a system where the state is destined to pay a significant profit margin on top of the real cost.

What's the difference between paying an extra margin in profit to a private supplier and an extra margin in inefficiency to a public supplier?

I think Labour's policy is designed to remove "inequality" from the health system, as though everybody enjoying the same crap healthcare will solve all our problems. I say we need greater inequality in healthcare, so that the high end, high margin services can subsidise the low margin side, in the same way that business class seats on a British Airways flight will subsidise the economy seats.

My belief is that the state should only supply a basic health service to everybody. Every whim cannot be catered for and cruel as it may seem, every radical new treatment cannot be purchased. Nobody argues that individuals on social welfare should be able to dine in Shanahan's every night but we don't expect them to go to bed hungry either.

I think it will be more cost effective for the state to provide a basic, efficient, clean and timely healthcare system for all by purchasing a basic insurance policy for every citizen in the state than to actually try and provide a health service itself.

Nobody would suggest that it is a "cop out" that the government doesn't take on Tesco in the food distribution game to ensure nobody in the state goes hungry. I fail to see how this is any different for health service provision.

Why not address the underlying issues.

Are you suggesting that nobody has tried? Does anybody know even know what they are? Resources are finite, we already spend more per head of population on health than the French, yet I hear very few suggestions for reform that don't involve throwing even more money at the existing problems.

The private hospitals aren't without their faults, e.g. MRSA in Blackrock Clinic, cancer misdiagnosis in Barringtons etc.

Indeed, but at least in a private healthcare system if you don't like one hospital you can take your business elsewhere.
 
Re: Health System

I think a public health system is something fundamental that should be provided by the state. Just like roads, sewerage treatment and drinking water there are some things that just should not be left up to the market to provide.

I agree with michaelm that we seem to have a very curious and illogical setup. Since I started earning over 20 years ago a portion of my salary each and every week or month has gone to contribute to PSRI, and also to the associated health levy.

I realised long ago that even though I was paying this money to at least partially fund a public health system, this system was unlikely to provide *a timely response* in the case of any number of medical situations that I might find myself in. Sure, it might provide a response, but I might be dead or have to endure months or years of pain and be out of work while I was waiting. So I also pay for private medical insurance just in case I might need it.

The galling thing is that if I ever needed to avail of this cover I might well find myself in a public hospital, being attended to by public employees. The same public hospital and public employees who couldn't see me publicly for months. How can this be ? How can these scarce resources be made available for private use when the primary employer of them (i.e. the public) can't use them ? Don't get me wrong - my complaint is not with the hospitals or with the employees, but with the system of governance of our public health system that has allowed this situation to arise. I have no problem with private practitioners using public resources (at a price) when these resources are surplus to requirements. I cannot accept that they can use the resources in their private capacity while there are long waiting lists for their primary users. Again, I have no problem with private clinics with nice flowers, fancy food, 24 hour professional cover, etc . . . if the market will bear the cost. Just don't use my public contributions to faciliate it. Keep the public and private seperate.

I don't think just throwing more money at the system is the solution - I could be wrong but we have been throwing money at some parts of the system for a long time now, and I don't think this has worked.

z
 
Re: Health System

What's the difference between paying an extra margin in profit to a private supplier and an extra margin in inefficiency to a public supplier?
There is at least an opportunity to eliminate that margin in the public sector. If you opt to privatise, you choose a system that will inherently and always include the margin.

I think Labour's policy is designed to remove "inequality" from the health system, as though everybody enjoying the same crap healthcare will solve all our problems. I say we need greater inequality in healthcare, so that the high end, high margin services can subsidise the low margin side, in the same way that business class seats on a British Airways flight will subsidise the economy seats.


If the business class seats create this generous subsidy, why would AL have cut them out on everything except transatlantic? Why would Ryanair not be using these seats to subsidise passengers further? I'd love to see some backup for this claim? If (and its a big if) such a subsidy exists, surely the great panacea of the free market competition is bound to eliminate this subsidy over time?


My belief is that the state should only supply a basic health service to everybody. Every whim cannot be catered for and cruel as it may seem, every radical new treatment cannot be purchased. Nobody argues that individuals on social welfare should be able to dine in Shanahan's every night but we don't expect them to go to bed hungry either.

I think it will be more cost effective for the state to provide a basic, efficient, clean and timely healthcare system for all by purchasing a basic insurance policy for every citizen in the state than to actually try and provide a health service itself.

Do you consider the expectation that when your wife goes into hospital to deliver twins, both she and the twins will come out alive to be a 'whim'? [Check out last week's inquiry into the Tania McCabe case in Drogheda? Do you consider the expectation that when your elderly parents go into hospital in Ennis they will come out in a more healthy state than they went in to be a whim? [Check out the reports of the fatal C.Diff infections in Ennis]. We are a long, long, long way from dealing with whims in the public health system.


Nobody would suggest that it is a "cop out" that the government doesn't take on Tesco in the food distribution game to ensure nobody in the state goes hungry. I fail to see how this is any different for health service provision.
I don't want to bring my children up in a more Boston than Berlin society where the healthcare they receive depends on their wealth. Basic healthcare provision is a basic human right.


Are you suggesting that nobody has tried? Does anybody know even know what they are? Resources are finite, we already spend more per head of population on health than the French, yet I hear very few suggestions for reform that don't involve throwing even more money at the existing problems.
Regrettably(and unsurprisingly), I don't have all the answers. Is there any international evidence that privatisation of health care actually works for ALL the population (instead of just the privileged few).


Indeed, but at least in a private healthcare system if you don't like one hospital you can take your business elsewhere.

You don't need a private system to be able to choose your hospital. Many public patients choose what hospital to go to based on discussions with their GP, or recommendations from family/friends, or simply by ringing up and asking how long the queue in A&E is.
 
There is at least an opportunity to eliminate that margin in the public sector. If you opt to privatise, you choose a system that will inherently and always include the margin.
Yes but how difficult is it to eliminate such a margin in a public sector organisation and how little incentive is there to do so? I say it is better to privatise, pay the profit margin of the private supplier and let the private supplier drive down costs and increase efficiency in the pursuit of profit. Where they fail to do so you can always switch to a new supplier.

I believe the weight of history backs this assertion.
If the business class seats create this generous subsidy, why would AL have cut them out on everything except transatlantic? Why would Ryanair not be using these seats to subsidise passengers further? I'd love to see some backup for this claim? If (and its a big if) such a subsidy exists, surely the great panacea of the free
market competition is bound to eliminate this subsidy over time?
This particular aspect of microeconomic theory is known as price discrimination. If I am a business I want to charge people according to their willingness to pay, as long as I can do so profitably. If Bill Gates walks into my shop with a headache, it probably makes little difference to him whether he pays €1,000 or €1 for aspirin. However, it might make a big difference to my business.

One means of discoverying what a customer is willing to pay (and some economists do not regard this as "true" price discrimination) is to offer some small additional frippery to your core product at an inflated cost over and above the worth of said frippery. Stewardesses that smile, a few inches of extra legroom and free drinks are not worth an extra €4,000 to most people - but "most people" are not the target market segment to which business class seats are sold.

One reason perhaps that Ryanair do not engage in such price discrimination (although they engage in plenty of other forms of it - see what it costs to buy a Ryanair ticket at the last minute) is that the people who fly BA 1st class would probably never be caught dead flying Ryanair anyway.

Do you consider the expectation that when your wife goes into hospital to deliver twins, both she and the twins will come out alive to be a 'whim'? [Check out last week's inquiry into the Tania McCabe case in Drogheda? Do you consider the expectation that when your elderly parents go into hospital in Ennis they will come
out in a more healthy state than they went in to be a whim? [Check out the reports of the fatal C.Diff infections in Ennis]. We are a long, long, long way from dealing with whims in the public health system.

You seem to be intent on working yourself up into a fit of self-righteous indignation without actually reading my post properly.

I don't want to bring my children up in a more Boston than Berlin society where the healthcare they receive depends on their wealth. Basic healthcare provision is a basic human right.

I would argue that basic healthcare provision is on a par with not going hungry regardless of economic circumstances. Are you suggesting that the government should start producing and distributing food?

Regrettably(and unsurprisingly), I don't have all the answers. Is there any international evidence that privatisation of health care actually works for ALL the population (instead of just the privileged few).

Well the current system works for no-one, don't forget that. I could just as easily question if you have any evidence that an efficient health care system can be run by the public sector?

No industrialised nation currently has a health care system that the majority of people are satisfied with. Also, since you specifically mentioned the American healthcare model as one you would wish to avoid, it is worth noting that 84% of Americans have health insurance, either privately-funded or employer-funded. So the only industrialised nation that does not offer government-sponsored healthcare to all its citizens, with the world's most expensive healthcare, still does not leave access to health in the hands of the "privileged few".
 
I believe the weight of history backs this assertion.
Which country's health system do you wish to emulate? (ie which one has the "weight of history" behind it)?

Where does one draw the line between services that the should be public and private? Why not privatise the police force, the fire brigade, the road traffic controllers etc..? Your house fire could be put out faster if you pay the "comprehensive" premium ...
 
Which country's health system do you wish to emulate? (ie which one has the "weight of history" behind it)?

Where does one draw the line between services that the should be public and private? Why not privatise the police force, the fire brigade, the road traffic controllers etc..? Your house fire could be put out faster if you pay the "comprehensive" premium ...
While your at it room305 what's your favourite colour? (Since we are dragging the whole thread off topic and ignoring the substance of the points you made) :rolleyes:
 
It gets better....

Reading this morning that a kid with a problematic kidney when into Crumlin Childrens hospital to have it removed. Guess what..? They removed the wrong kidney!!!!

I don't think it matters who is Minister For Health when dealing with stupidity like this.
 
I don't think it matters who is Minister For Health when dealing with stupidity like this.
That's where you're wrong. She has to be liable for any and all errors by the 120'000 odd people who work for the public health service. If she can't keep on top of a few thousand clinical decisions each day, as well as set and implement policy, then she should not be in the job!

at least that's what the opposition seem to think...
 
She has to be liable for any and all errors by the 120'000 odd people who work for the public health service.

People who make errors are responsible and should be dealt with.

The Minister is not responsible for every employee.

The opposition are all over the place on health - they favour centres of excellence while maintaining small local hospitals.

Centres of excellence are the way to go.
 
Which country's health system do you wish to emulate? (ie which one has the "weight of history" behind it)?

I'd prefer if you didn't misquote me. I said that the weight of history backs the assertion that the pursuit of profit leads to lower costs and increased efficiency. Is this an assertion you have a major problem with?

I also mentioned that no industrialised nation has a health care system the majority of people are satisfied with. This would indicate they all have major flaws. Of course arguments regarding public health care are generally fought on ideological rather than practical grounds.

Perhaps you'd care to mention the health care system you'd most like to see Ireland emulate?

Where does one draw the line between services that the should be public and private? Why not privatise the police force, the fire brigade, the road traffic controllers etc..? Your house fire could be put out faster if you pay the "comprehensive" premium ...

Where does one draw the line between public and private sector services indeed. Why not nationalise the banks, airlines, housing etc ... ?
 
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