this is a regularly used term which makes no sense at all because the rest of the world has more than enough problems of its own. Germany can hardly start giving out tips on how to run a country given its poor recent economical history. We are a small nation that is thriving, its not a utopia, there are problems, but we have alot more to be thankful for than to be giving out about. if we are a laughing stock in any capacity then let them keep on laughing and let us continue to enjoy our relative prosperity. off thread a little I know.
Is the minimum wage too high?
- Thread starter Purple
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this is a regularly used term which makes no sense at all because the rest of the world has more than enough problems of its own. Germany can hardly start giving out tips on how to run a country given its poor recent economical history. We are a small nation that is thriving, its not a utopia, there are problems, but we have alot more to be thankful for than to be giving out about. if we are a laughing stock in any capacity then let them keep on laughing and let us continue to enjoy our relative prosperity. off thread a little I know.
lol! Recent is the word. You are talking about the biggest exporter in the world there, you know.
It's hard to argue with that well thought out logical argument. It's only 3% of the population, stuff them. In fact I think I am going to refuse to pay tax anymore. Why should my tax go towards paying for health care, welfare payments, etc for those not clever enough to get a well paid job or with enough get up and go to get a second job.
What are you on about
I don't disagree with you second point, at least not in a buyers market for labour. The thing is that it's not a buyers market and the minimum wage has a knock on pay inflation pressure for the rest of the economy.
The question is how do be balance what's good for the economy with broader social issues given that a country is more than just an economy.
I love the idea that you think that people on the minimum wage have a) the option of overtime available to them or b) have the time for a second job. Many minumum wage jobs have no facility to offer overtime, you do the hours you are set and that's that. If people have children and are working for a minimum wage, chances are they cannot afford extra childcare costs while they go work their second job in the evenings or weekends.
As for only 3% of the population being on min. wage I find that hard to believe.
I would know quite a lot of people who are on minimum wage or just slightly above it (I'm around the 30 years of age mark, so I'm not talking about young inexperienced adults fresh out of the leaving cert or college), and have mortgages/children/cars like most of the rest of the adult population, and have to somehow get by on minimum wage.
Many of them also have good educations with degrees etc., but are unable to find work that pays well above the minimum wage.
I personally think that this is due to the location we live in (and it's not a rural backwater, but a large enough city), as there are so many people looking for jobs, employers know they will find someone willing to take the work on for a minimum wage in return, and they don't need to offer big salaries in order to fill the position, nor do they need to give payraises to keep members of staff, they tend to prefer to let them move on, and hire new staff who will work for the lower wages. This is just personal surmising, BTW, from what I see on a daily basis.
I will say I have had experience of going for jobs where the requirements are a 3rd level honours degree and 5 yrs working experience, only to be told that pay is circa 17k per annum for a fulltime position of 39/40 hours work a week. Talk about putting decent candidates right off. Where is the incentive for bettering yourself when after 4 years of putting yourself through college, plus time spent learning the ropes in that field of employment, you still end up at the lower or bottom of the payscale?
The only option for many people I know to earn more would be to uproot and move lock stock and barrell out of the country, or to a different city within Ireland, but of course many can't do this due to family ties etc.
I personally have been lucky enough to manage to work my way into roles that pay enough to keep a roof over our head and the bills paid, and have only spent some time in minimum wage jobs immediately after college, but I have not yet broken the 30k barrier, and in fact found myself right back at the start again last year after the company I was working for got taken over and some of us were made redundant during the restructuring process, and it's not for lack of trying to advance myself in the workplace - I have an advanced diploma and degree, plus years of experience. Imagine what it must be like for someone with only the Leaving Cert or even less to their name, trying to advance in terms of wages.
It's also a vicious circle, you find yourself in a minimum wage job, therefore you are only just keeping afloat, so you cannot spare the money to save to return to college to retrain, so you end up stuck in your minimum wage role trying to meet daily expenses.
The only reason I'm posting this is to point out that many people who are on minimum wage are not uneducated slobs living off their parents, incapable of trying to better their lot, in fact many I know have degrees, or are returning to college in their 30s or doing distance learning courses, and find themselves stuck on low wages years into their working life, especially now with the economic indicators pointing to a turndown as many are clinging onto their jobs for dear life.
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madisona
Guest
agree fully with Snuffle. With respect to the 3% figure, I don't know where you got it but many employers tend to pay slightly above the minimum wage e.g. if the min wage is €8.65 p.h. they will pay €8.72 p.h in order to avoid being labelled as a minimun wage employer. The benefits will usually be "paid annual leave". These are effectively min wage jobs
The minimun wage is more than enough for a single person living with their parents and such people also have more flexibility to do second jobs or overtime if available, but the fact is that there are a large number of people in their thirties and forties who are on the effective min wage. These people often have additional responsibilities and needs and to suggest that the minimun wage is too high for those in this situation is ridiculous.
The 3% figure was in the article that I linked to in my first post.
I don't disagree that it is very hard for people on the minimum wage who have families but I don't accept that in most cases they could not work longer hours if they chose to.
I support the idea of a minimum wage and, as I have said above, I am not sure if it is too high or not. My problem is the notion that people should be paid what they need, not what they earn. We have state funded mechanisms such as family income supplement which are there to help people on low incomes. It is right and proper that we do have them and they are the correct mechanism to give people what they need. Pricing jobs out of the country is not the way to do it.
I don't disagree that it is very hard for people on the minimum wage who have families but I don't accept that in most cases they could not work longer hours if they chose to.
I support the idea of a minimum wage and, as I have said above, I am not sure if it is too high or not. My problem is the notion that people should be paid what they need, not what they earn. We have state funded mechanisms such as family income supplement which are there to help people on low incomes. It is right and proper that we do have them and they are the correct mechanism to give people what they need. Pricing jobs out of the country is not the way to do it.
I don't understand this comment. Paid annual leave is a legal entitlement, not some sort of a perk.
I am not suggesting that it is. I am suggesting that, subject to a legal minimum wage, people should get paid what they earn, not what they need.
I simply questioned if it was too high.
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madisona
Guest
Quite. Are you aware of how many minimum wage ( or min wage plus 5c) employers list the statutory minimum annual leave entitlements as "Additional Benefits !! PAID ANNUAL LEAVE!!" along with "COMPETITIVE" salary and "PAID PUBLIC HOLIDAYS" . If you are not in a disc parking area you might be offered "FREE PARKING" and If there is no internet access allowed in an office there may also be a FREE INTERNET CAFE (i.e a PC is the corner ) I have also seen "FREE SHOWER AND BATHROOM FACILITIES"
I would back some of purples points in that if you are working 40 hours a week min wage, and are struggling then it is up to you to go and work that extra 10-20 hours in a 2nd job or over time. Most jobs nowadays don't simply end at 5pm, I could end up doing later evenings as well as a full day and then some weekends on top of it. The incentive is to better yourself. I went back to college and worked parttime so i basically worked 7 day weeks for 3 out 4 years, because I could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Its easy talk oneself out of going the extra mile, but it can be done.
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madisona
Guest
not always an option. a large proportion of min wage jobs involve working unsocial hours on weekends and evenings with constantly changing shift times.( shift and overtime allowances are rarely available) It is often difficult for someone to find a second job which will accomadate this. In addition a lot of employers don't offer overtime in order to prevent burnout and lower productivity.
Unless you live in a very isolated and economically deprived area I find it hard to believe that anyone who really wants to cannot find a job other than one where they have to work antisocial hours for the minimum wage with no overtime.
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madisona
Guest
classic right wing Thacherite arguement (although I'm not disputing that it does not have some validity)
"If you are in a low paid job it is because you are too lazy or stupid to do anything about it. Its your own fault and you should just get on you bike ."
So if anyone is to blame it is the low paid workers and not the economic system or those that profit from their labour. funny thing is this "American Dream" excuse has been successfully fooling low paid workers into blaming themselves for there economic circumstances for hundreds of years.
If it's not your fault then who's is it? More to the point why should it be your employers?
Also, why do you presume that an employer it exploiting their low paid workers by "profit[ing] from their labour"?
Every employer profits from the labour of their employees, otherwise the business is not viable. In my experience employers profit more from highly skilled and highly paid employees than from low paid and low skilled ones.
Again, if the job is low skill and low margin why should the employee be paid more simply because they have personal financial pressures?
Given that we have a welfare state and legislation that protects employees from exploitation who's fault is it if they are low paid?
don't remember calling peopple lazy or stupid its just about taking a different look at the problem. I remember when my friends were on huge money and building/buying houses and I was in a 'dead end job' I kept thinking how the hell do I sort myself out. I didn't begrudge anyone, but I knew I was the only one that was going to be able to sort out my own life. How many people coonstantly grumble about their job but never even look at the job ads in the paper. Its easy to get stuck in a rut, but neither economics or poltics have anything to do with it. It is often down to attitude.
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z103
Guest
They may be statutory requirements, but the employer is still paying for them.