bias in the work force against those with no kids

Bear in mind, most managers are long gone but dealing with US customers means the day can stretch till 10-11pm regularly.
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Oh how true....

Presumably the parents too are aware of these deadlines - do none of them feel the same pressure/responsibility that you appear to feel?
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Absolutly - there are daily and weekly meetings communicating what needs to get done - if things get delayed what happens is they are added to the next plan line... And so on...

Have you tried simply 'leaving on time' even when you know there is work to be done?
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Oh god yes, I am no saint, if I am incontrol of my work load I will go home on time - but there are occasions when at teh end of the project life cycle there are additional things that need to get done and every one tries to pitch in... It is during these times I notice that it is the more junior and the no kiddies - that are left behind...
 
Trafford said:
I'm sure it does. One can't assume that they are ok with leaving bang on time and leaving work to their colleagues. They are in a bit of a no win situation, unless they are lucky enough to have full time support who can do the parenting for them when the pressure is on at work.
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I bet they're ok collecting the same wage though!
 
Is there a reflection in increases or bonuses of who has put in the extra hours?
 
pinkyBear said:
- it is not that straight forward - as there are very strict deadlines that have to be met. If they dont get met - the contract oobligations are not met/ or no sale happens - we are out of a job!
My point is really, team work - it is noticed that during times of priority the parents are no where to be seen and it is left to others to tidy things up...
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I work in a similiar environment to you Pinkybear and I do understand where you are coming from but I also think you are being a bit unreasonable. The parent as well as feeling the above pressure (the contract obligations are not met/ or no sale happens ) also has the pressure of knowing that their child is waiting for them with a minder, or in a creche
or school. Its double the pressure. They have to chose. They are feeling more pressure at this point than you, as the pressure is coming from both directions (work and family).

pinkyBear said:
I understand children too are priorites and naturally they come first - but once in a while it would be nice to have some support...
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Children dont switch off "once in a while", (Im sure most parents would love that!), they are always there. In many cases the parent may wish to put in a 13.5 hr day but simply cant, they have to go home and embark on another job - that of a parent. They dont go home and put their feet up and watch Heros, they are feeding, bathing, engaging and trying to make up for the guilt of leaving their child for 8 hours every day mon-fri of their young lives so they can pay a mortgage. They arent off having fun while you put in your extra hours.

Also these things are quite often cyclical. Ive been working in IT 11 years. I have worked countless overtime (unpaid) hours for the reasons stated above, I have cancelled holidays for projects and even given up weekends, but some day soon please God I may be lucky enough to have a family and when I do I will leave having done 8 hours to pick the baby up in the creche and I wont feel guilty about the looming deadline (there's always one in my experience) as I have "put my hours in". Ill know at that stage, Ill have team members putting longer hours in, but I also know that there is a high chance in the future theyll also find themselves in that (family) position. It is as you say, teamwork, you support oneanother as well as the project.
 
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Is there a reflection in increases or bonuses of who has put in the extra hours?
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- no
Hi Casiopea -
understand where you are coming from but I also think you are being a bit unreasonable.
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I don't think so - I would not expect a parent - or anyone to work continously late - not healthy - however just because you have put your hours in previously that when your time comes you can leave at the appropriate time while your colleagues work late..
God I may be lucky enough to have a family and when I do I will leave having done 8 hours to pick the baby up in the creche and I wont feel guilty about the looming deadline
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Before the election I had a visit from Bill Tormey - canvasing - he was running for Fine Geal but he also works as a consultant in Beaumont Hospital. I mentioned earlier I have a friend in medicine - so I asked Bill about the new 40 hour directive for doctors - his responce - I had to do those hours when I was a registrar so why shouldn't others!!!

Casiopea - I completely understand that parents have obligations and priorities outside of work - how ever once in a while it would be nice if they chipped in like the rest of us...

If its the case that once you have children, you can abandon colleagues at times of need - then why dont all working women have children - then we can too don't have to work as hard....
 
pinkyBear said:
-
If its the case that once you have children, you can abandon colleagues at times of need - then why dont all working women have children - then we can too don't have to work as hard....
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Quotes like that don't help your argument. You have obviously never had to combine a career with a family so you are in no position to call working mothers slackers.
 
pinkyBear said:
- no
Before the election I had a visit from Bill Tormey - canvasing - he was running for Fine Geal but he also works as a consultant in Beaumont Hospital. I mentioned earlier I have a friend in medicine - so I asked Bill about the new 40 hour directive for doctors - his responce - I had to do those hours when I was a registrar so why shouldn't others!!!
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Not really too sure what your point is?

pinkyBear said:
Casiopea - I completely understand that parents have obligations and priorities outside of work - how ever once in a while it would be nice if they chipped in like the rest of us...
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Like I said, children dont "switch off" once in a while. The parent has no choice in this matter.

pinkyBear said:
If its the case that once you have children, you can abandon colleagues at times of need
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Its not abandoning, its prioritizing. Staying on after 6pm while your child has noone to look after them - that is abandoning.

BTW, there is a responsibility here as well on the project manager of the project. A project manager should think in terms of the type of resources they have and can they put the hours in, and schedule accordingly. Ideally of course a project should be scheduled so no one feels undue pressure but that never happens for various reasons.

pinkyBear said:
- then why dont all working women have children - then we can too don't have to work as hard....
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Dont understand your point? A lot of working women and men have children?
 
Quotes like that don't help your argument. You have obviously never had to combine a career with a family so you are in no position to call working mothers slackers.
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True - you are right and yes I went a bit overbord - so point well made..

Sorry about that - Its just that I do get a bit frustrated with the late nights, and as I said the juniors and the no kiddie people having to work late..

I do know working mums juggle and work very hard...
 
- it is not that straight forward - as there are very strict deadlines that have to be met. If they dont get met - the contract oobligations are not met/ or no sale happens - we are out of a job!
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It is that straightforward.
I've worked in software development for over 15 years, and have been in similar positions. However, I've learnt that I only work the hours I've been contracted for. If I want to do charity work, there are far more worthwhile causes.

If the company you work for can't compete, then maybe they should go out of business, and let either better run, or foreign companies (with lower overheads) take on the work load.

Do you own shares in the company?
 
pinkyBear said:
If its the case that once you have children, you can abandon colleagues at times of need - then why dont all working women have children - then we can too don't have to work as hard....
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Firstly I think this is a very sexist remark - men have and feel the same pressures of work vs family as women.

Secondly I think the point that previous posters have made is valid - the issue isn't really with the people who work their contracted hours and go home (as they are legally entitled to!), the issue is with your company that allows extra or unfairly allocated work to go unnoticed and unrewarded.

As I said earlier why don't you just leave after your eight hours? If you're doing all this extra work for no extra reward why bother? Is there some other reason you stay to finish the job?
 
Do you own shares in the company?
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- Nope

As I said earlier why don't you just leave after your eight hours? If you're doing all this extra work for no extra reward why bother? Is there some other reason you stay to finish the job?
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The reason I stay late is that I have a sense of pride in my work - I like to get things sone per schedule...

Firstly I think this is a very sexist remark - men have and feel the same pressures of work vs family as women.
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- Yes the remark was uncalled for by me and apologies.

the issue is with your company that allows extra or unfairly allocated work to go unnoticed and unrewarded.
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That could very well be it.
 
To be honest PinkyBear, maybe if you stopped posting here you might not have to do a 13.5 hour day. Are the working mothers on the internet?? ;)

Only joking by the way!
 
the issue is with your company that allows extra or unfairly allocated work to go unnoticed and unrewarded.

That could very well be it./
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I don't think that is it. The company is there to make money, which, presumably it's doing. Your managers are doing a great job - getting you to work for free!

The issue lies with you. No one is forcing you at gun point to stay late, but you do. You then complain about others who have more sense and go home on time.

Your loyalties are misdirected. You might see the light after another few years of toil, when the people who go home on time get promoted ahead of you etc. etc...
 
pinkyBear said:
The reason I stay late is that I have a sense of pride in my work - I like to get things sone per schedule...
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Just because someone doesn't stay late doesn't mean they don't have pride in their work!

If you have to stay late to get things done on schedule then the schedule is wrong, unrealistic, badly managed - take your pick. Is NOT because people with children leave after working a full day.

Edit - just saw Leghorn's post and I think he's hit the nail on the head!
 
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If you have to stay late to get things done on schedule then the schedule is wrong, unrealistic, badly managed - take your pick. Is NOT because people with children leave after working a full day.
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I agree with all of the above.
However I think I am been taken out of context - I don't always have to work late, and I would never expect anyone to do so. However the nature of our business is that comming upto a release it is all hands on deck, and every one tries to pitch in. But those that pitch in are usually those without children..
 
pinkyBear said:
I agree with all of the above.
However I think I am been taken out of context - I don't always have to work late, and I would never expect anyone to do so. However the nature of our business is that comming upto a release it is all hands on deck, and every one tries to pitch in. But those that pitch in are usually those without children..
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Read Leghorn's post again:

"The issue lies with you. No one is forcing you at gun point to stay late, but you do. You then complain about others who have more sense and go home on time.

Your loyalties are misdirected. You might see the light after another few years of toil, when the people who go home on time get promoted ahead of you etc. etc..."

You're going to have to come to terms with this yourself!
 
pinkyBear: I think you are working for the wrong company. Where I am, it is the young singles without kids that leave on time more so than the (by now) grey-bearded ones.

Squash, swimming, hangen', chillen', nights out, telly, and 'stuff' seems to be more of a draw for the young guns than family is for the older guns. The family guys just get on and deal with their commitments, juggle well, work at home if necessary when the kids are in bed, and yes, they are well looked after. Any young gun that sticks his head above the rest gets the lift he deserves. Attitude is rewarded as much as effort.

Talk to your manager, find a solution, or move on - but don't lose the conscientiousness. Don't look for an easy life elsewhere. Look for a place that appreciates your conscientiousness. They are out there.
 
nt00deep said:
Talk to your manager, find a solution, or move on - but don't lose the conscientiousness. Don't look for an easy life elsewhere. Look for a place that appreciates your conscientiousness. They are out there.
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Well said.
 
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