We have lost the run of ourselves...

[Purple]

Can't for the life of me think of any €180 dinner that is great value. Perhaps if it incorporated a lot of gold leaf?

Then it would be bad value for you, just like the bottle of Mouton Rothschild would be. That doesn't make it bad value for everyone.
The problem here is that people are talking about things that they don't understand. If the ingredients cost €40 and the chef buys everything fresh every morning and throws out everything that is not used every evening then €180 would be required to tern a profit. If people buy the meal because they are into that sort of food and it's their passion then good for them. If they buy it because it's expensive and they think it's the place to be seen then they are idiots but it's unfair to make sweeping statements as if their was some one size fits all measure of value for restaurants.

 

[diarmuidc]

I always felt satisfied and well fed after my "Menu du Jour". The €3 charge for a pitcher of the delicious local wine also went down well and no headaches like I sometimes get from the more expensive bottled stuff here.

I eat out quite a bit in France (I live in Nice) but to be honest the the wine you get for €3 in a resto is generally poor. You will get a 50cl pitcher of rose for €5 and it may be decent (depending on resto) but €3 is generally bad. Having said that, the value I get in wines when I go back to Ireland is shocking, especially in restaurants.

flying in to Nice with Aer Lingus and paying over €200 for the privilege. Around the same time I am also doing the trip with Ryanair for just over €40. He could have gone with Ryanair but didn't. Why?

The Ryanair route only opened in the last couple of weeks. Maybe he had booked before the route was announced. Prices on the AerLingus route have been around the 200E mark for the past 1.5 years.

 

[Caveat]

Then it would be bad value for you, just like the bottle of Mouton Rothschild would be. That doesn't make it bad value for everyone.
The problem here is that people are talking about things that they don't understand. If the ingredients cost €40 and the chef buys everything fresh every morning and throws out everything that is not used every evening then €180 would be required to tern a profit. If people buy the meal because they are into that sort of food and it's their passion then good for them. If they buy it because it's expensive and they think it's the place to be seen then they are idiots but it's unfair to make sweeping statements as if their was some one size fits all measure of value for restaurants.

I agree.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you are a 'foodie'.
I would be prepared to spend a lot on a very good meal. Some may see this as frivolous but then again, I wouldn't dream of spending more than 10K on a car, or I would never buy a plasma/LCD - you put your own value on your personal tastes and comforts.

However, if an expensive or even moderately expensive restaurant served up a mediocre or worse, poor meal, I would be upset.

The worst offenders IMO tend to be the 'mid-range' places - you know, restaurants that have a few Bridgestone/Egon Ronay plaques etc and higher than average prices - you know they're not going to be amazing but you would still rightly expect a decent meal.

Consider the ubiquitous pasta/salmon dish. What you'll get is a suspiciously shallow dish, filled with packet/dried pasta, a few flakes of smoked salmon, in cream, with a few leaves of basil. And that's literally it.
No other ingredients or seasoning, and no thought or time invested.

The ingredient costs are minimal and a child could make it.

It's perfectly edible but it's something I'd knock together after coming home from a night on the beer. If it cost under €10 I wouldn't mind (because it's not worth any more than that) but I will not pay €20 odd for a joke of a 'meal' like that. At the very least I would expect fresh pasta. You'll probably be given that awful powdered Parmesan as well.

It's this kind of thing that gets me.

And don't even get me started on these places failing in the remedial task of cooking a steak as requested - it's almost always overcooked...

(If I'm starting to sound like Michael Winner - shoot me)

 

[Purple]

I agree.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you are a 'foodie'.
I would be prepared to spend a lot on a very good meal. Some may see this as frivolous but then again, I wouldn't dream of spending more than 10K on a car, or I would never buy a plasma/LCD - you put your own value on your personal tastes and comforts.

However, if an expensive or even moderately expensive restaurant served up a mediocre or worse, poor meal, I would be upset.

The worst offenders IMO tend to be the 'mid-range' places - you know, restaurants that have a few Bridgestone/Egon Ronay plaques etc and higher than average prices - you know they're not going to be amazing but you would still rightly expect a decent meal.

Consider the ubiquitous pasta/salmon dish. What you'll get is a suspiciously shallow dish, filled with packet/dried pasta, a few flakes of smoked salmon, in cream, with a few leaves of basil. And that's literally it.
No other ingredients or seasoning, and no thought or time invested.

The ingredient costs are minimal and a child could make it.

It's perfectly edible but it's something I'd knock together after coming home from a night on the beer. If it cost under €10 I wouldn't mind (because it's not worth any more than that) but I will not pay €20 odd for a joke of a 'meal' like that. At the very least I would expect fresh pasta. You'll probably be given that awful powdered Parmesan as well.

It's this kind of thing that gets me.

And don't even get me started on these places failing in the remedial task of cooking a steak as requested - it's almost always overcooked...

(If I'm starting to sound like Michael Winner - shoot me)

I agree with everything you have said.
In my opinion an expensive restaurant is anywhere that will cost over €80 per head for a meal, not including wine. These are usually good value. It's the places that you have described that are most likely to serve bad or mediocre food for €40+ a head, the sort of stuff that would be half the price and better in a good pub.
(I also agree that it's very hard to get a properlycooked steak in Ireland, and don't get me started on how we over-cook pork.)

 

[efm]

I agree with everything you have said.
In my opinion an expensive restaurant is anywhere that will cost over €80 per head for a meal, not including wine. These are usually good value. It's the places that you have described that are most likely to serve bad or mediocre food for €40+ a head, the sort of stuff that would be half the price and better in a good pub.
(I also agree that it's very hard to get a properlycooked steak in Ireland, and don't get me started on how we over-cook pork.)

I also agree. My experience to date has been that I have a much greater chance of having a dinning experience that I really enjoy at the top end of the market (ie over 80 euro a head). And for me the setting and service is also an important part of the dining experience.

But that doesn't stop the search for the 80 euro per head meal at 20 euro per head prices!!

 

[Caveat]

But that doesn't stop the search for the 80 euro per head meal at 20 euro per head prices!!

I had such a meal on Sunday as per the above mentioned post.

The place is an absolute joy: shabby chic surroundings (& staff ), unpretentious, relatively unsophisticated food - but natural, beautifully cooked, flavoured and presented.

E.g. An absolute slab of a steak, well hung and cooked to perfection, veg that is not overcooked, perfect roast potatoes, proper home made sauces (you can just tell), perfectly decadent deserts (accompanied by home made ice cream) etc etc...

All with friendly attentive service.

And no, I'm not telling you where it is...

 

[Purple]

I take it from your location that you are in Cork... am I correct?

 

[Caveat]

I take it from your location that you are in Cork... am I correct?

Not even close Purple...

BTW it isn't an anti Dublin 'Location' I was just sick of posters often assuming everyone else was from Dublin

 

[BOXtheFOX]

I agree with Caveat. I can knock up a pretty good pasta and stir fry myself so when I go out for a meal these dishes are given a miss. You can get great ingredients for a good stir fry in the large Chinese Supermarket on Drury Street. B.T.W.
Just another thing. While in France my wife brought one of her medical prescriptions with her. A pack of 24 tablets that cost €18 here were only €12 there. Another saving.
I must admit you can get a nice fillet steak in The Leopardstown Inn, haven't been there in a while but I feel a trip coming on......

 

[Purple]

I agree with Caveat. I can knock up a pretty good pasta and stir fry myself so when I go out for a meal these dishes are given a miss. You can get great ingredients for a good stir fry in the large Chinese Supermarket on Drury Street. B.T.W.
Just another thing. While in France my wife brought one of her medical prescriptions with her. A pack of 24 tablets that cost €18 here were only €12 there. Another saving.
I must admit you can get a nice fillet steak in The Leopardstown Inn, haven't been there in a while but I feel a trip coming on......

Part of the reason that things are cheaper in France is that they earn less and pay more taxes. This applies to prescription drugs in particular. That said food in general is much better in France but that's what their good at.
I would never order pasta in a restaurant, or any other dish that comprises cheap ingredients that can be disguised by a heavy sauce.

 

[Purple]

Not even close Purple...

BTW it isn't an anti Dublin 'Location' I was just sick of posters often assuming everyone else was from Dublin

Ah, so you are "down the counrty" so.

 

[Caveat]

Ah, so you are "down the counrty" so.

Yep

And another thing...

Indian restaurants tend to provide great value - it's difficult to get a bad Indian IMO. It's rare that they would attract wider critical acclaim though partly, I think, for two reasons: Few critics possess the requisite objective criteria to evaluate Indian restaurants; and they are constrained by their own 'ethnicity' - there are no surprises or innovations.

Often though I get the impression that every meal is merely a variant from a central 'pot' - but I don't really mind when it tastes so good.

However, there is supposed to be an Indian in Ardee, Co. Louth that bucks this trend.

 

[elefantfresh]

Used to be an Indian on Sth Georges St called the East end or the West End - can't remember. It was a great shop - very nice food and very reasonable and the staff were just great. I think its gone now though. Dunno why.

 

[Protocol]

I have been in Paris 3 times in the last 18 months, and eat out twice a day while there.

While it is obviously possible to pay huge money for meals there, my main point is that there are many more mid-market good value restaurants/bistros over there.

Examples: we paid 15 euro for a 3-course lunch just off the Blvd. Montparnasse, in a restaurant called Wadja. There wasn’t much choice, and the dishes were simple, but it was such good value. See here:
http://www.timeout.com/paris/guidevenue/1497/Wadja.html

Similarly, look at the menu in the famous Chartier restaurant (e.g. soup for 2 euro, rump steak for 10.50):

http://www.restaurant-chartier.com/www/visit/atable.php

Here’s another one, the Polidor restaurant, with menus at 20 and 30 euro (increased recently), and wine at 2.50 for 50cl:

http://restaurantpolidor.info/lesmenus.htm


Another point: steaks. While Irish beef is no doubt good quality, why are steaks here always 18-20-22 euro? Whereas in central Paris, steak frites are 11-13 euro?

 

[Purple]

While Irish beef is no doubt good quality, why are steaks here always 18-20-22 euro? Whereas in central Paris, steak frites are 11-13 euro?[/SIZE][/FONT]

You can get a good steak in Kenya for less again, so what? Different countries have different cost bases.

 

[BOXtheFOX]

Part of the reason that things are cheaper in France is that they earn less and pay more taxes. This applies to prescription drugs in particular. That said food in general is much better in France but that's what their good at.
I would never order pasta in a restaurant, or any other dish that comprises cheap ingredients that can be disguised by a heavy sauce.

Because the French earn less and pay more taxes the drug companies charge them less but in Ireland because we earn more and pay more taxes the cost of drugs is dearer. So the price of drugs is linked to earnings and tax rates?
Maybe a good reason to retire to France for several months of the year and keep the higher pension and less tax deduction. My pension could go a lot further.

 

[Protocol]

The cost base in central Paris would be nearly as high as Dublin.

Their VAT is either 19.6 or 20.6%, similar to ours.

Their PRSI is higher than ours.

Wage rates may be different, but not hugely.

Overheads may be higher in Ireland.

Beer is actually dearer in Paris, up to 9 euro per pint. Though you can get 500ml for 4 euro.

But, still, steaks are substantially dearer in Ireland?

 

[Protocol]

Here's how drug prices are set in Ireland.

The ex-factory price is linked to the prices in a few countries in northern Europe.

The 3 big drug wholesalers add a 17.64% margin when selling to retailers. When selling to hospitals, the wholesale margin is 0% on large orders.

Then retail pharmacies add a 50% margin if selling to a private/DPS patient.

For medical cards, the retail margin is 0%.

I suspect the reason for our higher drug prices is the generous wholesale and retail margins.

 

[Caveat]

But, still, steaks are substantially dearer in Ireland?

Not the point maybe, but I'd be happy to pay the price if the alternative is French steaks - I've had many a good meal in France but never a good steak.

 

[Caveat]

Used to be an Indian on Sth Georges St called the East end or the West End - can't remember. It was a great shop - very nice food and very reasonable and the staff were just great. I think its gone now though. Dunno why.

There was a very good place around South William St? It was on a corner - can't remember the name but something typical like Taj Mahal - the whole place was quite open plan and airy, with steps leading up from the reception to the dining area.

Don't know if it still exists but had a few great meals there about 10 years ago.