Aer Lingus Strike

[Sunny]

I don't remember all these posts talking about protecting jobs and wages when companies were flooding into Ireland to take advantage of our cheaper labour and low taxes. These jobs came from somewhere else and people in other countries lost jobs for our benefit but we didn't seem to care. But now that companies feel they can get cheaper labour in another country, people are up in arms crying about how unfair it is.

My understanding is that around 20 pilots currently based in Dublin want to transfer to Belfast. The company is saying that they will have to apply with outside candidates and accept local pay and conditions. Where is the problem? Would they be giving out if local pay and conditions dictated that the pilots would be paid 200 grand. Oh yeah, then the Dublin pilots wouldn't be happy

And I have seen no evidence that the company plans to use the Belfast pilots to undermine the Dublin based ones. Surely the Belfast based pilots can just refuse to fly from Dublin if they feel they are being used to exploit their colleagues. Then the Union might have some support.

 

[gonk]

And I have seen no evidence that the company plans to use the Belfast pilots to undermine the Dublin based ones..

Well of course. There will be no evidence unless and until the company actually does this. However, in my view, the Dublin-based pilots have good grounds for suspecting this is part of the company's agenda in opening this base.

Surely the Belfast based pilots can just refuse to fly from Dublin if they feel they are being used to exploit their colleagues..

Not if it's in their contract that they may be required to do so from the time they are hired.

Then the Union might have some support.

The union does have plenty of support, albeit not from you.

 

[Bluebells]

FUB = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt....it's all the padding, bull and other stuff in the media that is designed to prevent you getting to the base truth about something. In this case the unions sing the song that workers are being persecuted and need saving/protecting, but also more money to maintain their level of productivity.

Every private sector industry makes people 'earn' their bonus, wage increase and the professionals that try, are rewarded. The private sector can thrive without unions, so it's not all doom and gloom and 'protect the poor workers'. Unions are not needed, end of.

I do believe that 'some' workers are in bad conditions, but as I have heard before on various radio shows etc, you have to look at the local market where these factories are. Not everyone has the same standard of living, so a sweatshop to someone on the M50 in their air-conditioned X5 is a welcome change to someone who jsut got a job in the factory, that gets them out of the fields in 40+ degrees of heat for 14 hours a day.

Again, people do not have the ability to take all factors into account when posting their opinion.

What does your middle paragraph mean?
Why do you say 'some'?
Do you mean no unions anywhere, ever?

 

[aircobra19]

I don't remember all these posts talking about protecting jobs and wages when companies were flooding into Ireland to take advantage of our cheaper labour and low taxes. These jobs came from somewhere else and people in other countries lost jobs for our benefit but we didn't seem to care. But now that companies feel they can get cheaper labour in another country, people are up in arms crying about how unfair it is.

My understanding is that around 20 pilots currently based in Dublin want to transfer to Belfast. The company is saying that they will have to apply with outside candidates and accept local pay and conditions. Where is the problem? Would they be giving out if local pay and conditions dictated that the pilots would be paid 200 grand. Oh yeah, then the Dublin pilots wouldn't be happy

And I have seen no evidence that the company plans to use the Belfast pilots to undermine the Dublin based ones. Surely the Belfast based pilots can just refuse to fly from Dublin if they feel they are being used to exploit their colleagues. Then the Union might have some support.

You looking at it simple local terms. When its really an international issue. The pilots hired in Blefast won't be trained or operated or promoted on a local scope but anywhere in the company. The company has a history of trying to renage on negociated agreements. Many of the agreements are in place for issues of promotion, senoirty etc. Lots of those are the same internationally. Some restrict how a pilot can move between airlines. Basically you lose senority if you move. AFAIK On rare occasions an airline will waive that but not typically. Basically theres a lot riding on this for the pilots for their future careers, as they see it.

The way I see it regardless of their complaing the pilots have it pretty good. Most people would think they won the lottery to have a job as good. But having said that. They are entitled to try and maintain their positions. I don't that much sympathy for them. But I just have less empathy for the company/managment at Aer Lingus based on their track history. Paying themselves bonuses while expecting the staff to take hits in order to make more profits.

 

[Sunny]

Well of course. There will be no evidence unless and until the company actually does this. However, in my view, the Dublin-based pilots have good grounds for suspecting this is part of the company's agenda in opening this base.



Not if it's in their contract that they may be required to do so from the time they are hired.



The union does have plenty of support, albeit not from you.

Suspecting management of something is not grounds for striking and disrupting the plans of 50,000 customers. There are mechanisms in place for dealing with concerns.

I have not seen one Union official claim that they think the Belfast pilots will undermine their Dublin counterparts or will be sent in to fly from Dublin at lower wages. Their argument has been that the Belfast pilots should be paid the same as Dublin pilots as Belfast as it is not a foreign base.

I will support a Union that I think is acting for the good of all employees of a company. If the pilots cause is so just, why aren't the other unions in Aer Lingus coming out to support them?? And where the pilots when all the ground staff in Aer Lingus were having their working conditions changed?

 

[sinbadsailor]

What does your middle paragraph mean?
Why do you say 'some'?
Do you mean no unions anywhere, ever?

Middle paragraph basically means that workers in the private sector, who don't have the 'protection' of a union, get a job based on merit, do that job and if they do it well, they get rewarded for their hard work.

Not all workers work in bad conditions? Bad conditions to one person is not bad conditions to the other?

Obviously not, unions don't make sense to me in this day and age, not in a country like Ireland anyway. We're not talking coal mines and woolen mills here

 

[Purple]

A little contradictory, surely?

I don't see why.
There may well be pilots in management and I'm sure pilots as a group have an input into how the company is run (formally or informally) but this strike is about the pilots as a block trying to prevent the airline growing as a company in order to protect what they see as their own interests and not the interests of the company as a whole or indeed the interests of all of the existing employees.

 

[Bluebells]

Middle paragraph basically means that workers in the private sector, who don't have the 'protection' of a union, get a job based on merit, do that job and if they do it well, they get rewarded for their hard work.

Not all workers work in bad conditions? Bad conditions to one person is not bad conditions to the other?

Obviously not, unions don't make sense to me in this day and age, not in a country like Ireland anyway. We're not talking coal mines and woolen mills here

Well I am. Instead of basing your opinions on things you "heard on various radio prgrammes etc", have a look at the modern coalmining industry. Compare the death rates between unionised mines and the non unionised. While you are at it sinbadsailor, have a peek at the shipping industry. Pay particular attention to the shipbreakers lives in India. A Union might make sense to them. Then check out the computer recycling industry in Aisa.

 

[sinbadsailor]

Well I am. Instead of basing your opinions on things you "heard on various radio prgrammes etc", have a look at the modern coalmining industry. Compare the death rates between unionised mines and the non unionised. While you are at it sinbadsailor, have a peek at the shipping industry. Pay particular attention to the shipbreakers lives in India. A Union might make sense to them. Then check out the computer recycling industry in Aisa.

Coal-mining, shipping, shipbreaking and computer recycling are not what is in discussion here. We are talking about unions protecting the interests of educated, high income earners and their attitude to protecting cushie jobs, outdated and unsustainable pensions etc. In these industries unions serve only to feather the beds of the union officials and give public sector workers more privileges that private sector workers.

I suggest starting another thread to highlight the plight of what you have mentioned above, as while tragic, is not on point.

 

[Purple]

While you are at it sinbadsailor, have a peek at the shipping industry. Pay particular attention to the shipbreakers lives in India. A Union might make sense to them. Then check out the computer recycling industry in Aisa.

Indeed. I'm sure a union will sort out the problem of the child slaves on Lake Volta in Ghana, or the death rates amongst the indentured slaves in the salt mines in Niger, or the forced labour used in brick kilns in India, Pakistan and Nepal. Or maybe a democratic government that legislates for the people is the answer and you assertion that a union will help sort out the appalling poverty that these people live in and the idea that a union is the answer is utter nonsense.
As my family was heavily involved in the foundation of the union movement in this country I have taken a passing interest in it. The unions of the early part of the last century fought for basic and much needed protection for employees and were part of a much larger movement for social justice that has campaigned for the abolition of slavery and women's rights. The reality is that they won those battles and the things they sought are now covered by legislation. The idea that the Aer Lingus pilots are in some way continuing the good struggle in the tradition of Connolly or Larkin is utter rubbish. They are a rich and powerful group attempting to safeguard their position of privilege to the detriment of the general public. It just shows how much the public sector (and former public sector) unions have betrayed their heritage.

 

[Bluebells]

Indeed. I'm sure a union will sort out the problem of the child slaves on Lake Volta in Ghana, or the death rates amongst the indentured slaves in the salt mines in Niger, or the forced labour used in brick kilns in India, Pakistan and Nepal. Or maybe a democratic government that legislates for the people is the answer and you assertion that a union will help sort out the appalling poverty that these people live in and the idea that a union is the answer is utter nonsense.
As my family was heavily involved in the foundation of the union movement in this country I have taken a passing interest in it. The unions of the early part of the last century fought for basic and much needed protection for employees and were part of a much larger movement for social justice that has campaigned for the abolition of slavery and women's rights. The reality is that they won those battles and the things they sought are now covered by legislation. The idea that the Aer Lingus pilots are in some way continuing the good struggle in the tradition of Connolly or Larkin is utter rubbish. They are a rich and powerful group attempting to safeguard their position of privilege to the detriment of the general public. It just shows how much the public sector (and former public sector) unions have betrayed their heritage.

The Aer Lingus pilots are employees. Their employers are employing more pilots on lower wages. This has an implication for the promotional prospects of the existing pilots, as Aer Lingus are recruiting at Captain level. They, as employees, go to work and do their job, the same as any other employee. I don't know why you say they have a position of privilege. They didn't just walk into the jobs.
They are entitled to defend themselves, regardless of how the public perceive them.
Very few employers operate for the benefit of the public. They exist to generate profit. Employees work to earn a living, not to benefit the public. The employer wants to maximise profits, the employee wants to maximise earnings.
I'm not defending the pilots in particular, just their or any other employee's right to protest.

 

[room305]

The Aer Lingus pilots are employees. Their employers are employing more pilots on lower wages. This has an implication for the promotional prospects of the existing pilots, as Aer Lingus are recruiting at Captain level. They, as employees, go to work and do their job, the same as any other employee. I don't know why you say they have a position of privilege. They didn't just walk into the jobs.
They are entitled to defend themselves, regardless of how the public perceive them.
Very few employers operate for the benefit of the public. They exist to generate profit. Employees work to earn a living, not to benefit the public. The employer wants to maximise profits, the employee wants to maximise earnings.
I'm not defending the pilots in particular, just their or any other employee's right to protest.

So what you're saying is that if I discover my company has been recruiting in India for similar positions at a lower salary, then myself and my buddies should just down tools until they increase the salary of our Indian counter-parts? Now, imagine this replicated in every company in Ireland and envision the economy in a few short years afterwards.

Warning to the Aer Lingus pilots, steep learning curve ahead.

 

[Sunny]

The Aer Lingus pilots are employees. Their employers are employing more pilots on lower wages. This has an implication for the promotional prospects of the existing pilots, as Aer Lingus are recruiting at Captain level. They, as employees, go to work and do their job, the same as any other employee. I don't know why you say they have a position of privilege. They didn't just walk into the jobs.
They are entitled to defend themselves, regardless of how the public perceive them.
Very few employers operate for the benefit of the public. They exist to generate profit. Employees work to earn a living, not to benefit the public. The employer wants to maximise profits, the employee wants to maximise earnings.
I'm not defending the pilots in particular, just their or any other employee's right to protest.

Why is profit such a dirty word to so many people???? I presume since you are against companies maximising profit you hold your pension fund in cash??? You would swear companies make all this profit and put it under the mattress.
Employees have the right to defend themselves and nobody will deny that but in this day and age there are enough industrial relations bodies ready to step in and help negotiations. The fact that they their first course of action was to declare a strike shows the mentality of these guys.
This thing will end by Dublin pilots accepting that Belfast pilots should be on different terms and conditions, Dublin pilots who transfer to Belfast will not lose out and there is also be a little sweetener for the rest of the Dublin pilots to make up for their stress and suffering. Amazing how all industrial grievances can be solved by throwing money at it.

 

[aircobra19]

So what you're saying is that if I discover my company has been recruiting in India for similar positions at a lower salary, then myself and my buddies should just down tools until they increase the salary of our Indian counter-parts? Now, imagine this replicated in every company in Ireland and envision the economy in a few short years afterwards.

Warning to the Aer Lingus pilots, steep learning curve ahead.

What steep learning curve? Why do people keep comparing this to Irish companies? Airlines operate internationally. So they compare themselve with other international companies and their pay scales. AFAIK Aer Lingus is on a par with in peers in Europe anyway. (I'm open to correction) Look at it this way. How about you have to train those indian counter-parts to do the same jobs you. They can be bought in to do your job in your location, and when promotional opportunities arise in your location, they can promoted ahead of you. Or they can be brought in to fill promotion roles without them being offered to you. At the same time they are cheaper to employ and operate than you are. Eventually in effect they bypass the existing seniority ladder and existing working agreements.

I don't have much empathy for people earning a lot of money, but I can see why they'd have a problem with this. If theres no promotional opportunites, they'll have to move companies to advance. Which means moving to another country. Again no ones going to have empathy for people who can well afford to do this. But thats not the point.

 

[Sunny]

What steep learning curve? Why do people keep comparing this to Irish companies? Airlines operate internationally. So they compare themselve with other international companies and their pay scales. AFAIK Aer Lingus is on a par with in peers in Europe anyway. (I'm open to correction) Look at it this way. How about you have to train those indian counter-parts to do the same jobs you. They can be bought in to do your job in your location, and when promotional opportunities arise in your location, they can promoted ahead of you. Or they can be brought in to fill promotion roles without them being offered to you. At the same time they are cheaper to employ and operate than you are. Eventually in effect they bypass the existing seniority ladder and existing working agreements.

I don't have much empathy for people earning a lot of money, but I can see why they'd have a problem with this. If theres no promotional opportunites, they'll have to move companies to advance. Which means moving to another country. Again no ones going to have empathy for people who can well afford to do this. But thats not the point.

Why didn't they wait till the company started promoting these cheap labour pilots from Belfast instead of offering the promotions to Dublin based pilots. Basically they threatened to strike on something the company might do and not on what it did. If every union had that idea, the country would be on permanent strike.

 

[aircobra19]

Why didn't they wait till the company started promoting these cheap labour pilots from Belfast instead of offering the promotions to Dublin based pilots. Basically they threatened to strike on something the company might do and not on what it did. If every union had that idea, the country would be on permanent strike.

Again you are looking at this in isolation. The current dispute is the latest in a long history of disputes. http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0720/aerlingus.html . I assume this history of disputes and [SIZE=-1]renaging [/SIZE]on agreement after agreement, has led a situation where the pilots has little faith in the managment.

 

[DublinTexas]

I think is not commercial at all, this is pure politics boiled down to the unions opinion that Belfast it is not a foreign base. Simple as that. I am not making any statement to the political point of this, that is up to everyone him/herself.

The pilots (as part owners of the company) can't have any commerical interest in stopping their own company from making profit by deploying common practices of paying people as to where their place of work/base is.

I work in a multinational and my counterpart in England get's a different salary/conditions than my counterpart in Frankfurt for exactly the same work. There is nothing complicated about that. All 3 of us are free to apply for any promotion that there might be anywhere in the company and than the salary/conditions will be according to the place of work for that (there are some execptions for inter company transfers).

That such a small airline as AerLingus is having problems adopting to an international rollout (politcis about the status of Belfast as foreign base aside) is no wonder, any company that is expanding is having such trouble.

I personaly don't fly AerLingus not because of the "busdrivers" in the cockpit but rather the bad ground and inflight service so I won't be directly affected by them striking but the impact on the irish economy is going to be harsh.

Striking for polictical rather than economical reasons or of fear that there might be problem down the road in an expansion plan is just wrong.

I think the union should wake up and smell the coffee.. Expanding is good..

 

[sinbadsailor]

Simply put, Aer Lingus and it's management and empoyees need to understand that the company is publicly traded now. All their decisions affect the price, which affects the company. It's one big machine, to whcih they all play a part. They collectively control the success/failure of the company.

The company as a whole needs to re-prioritise and change their focus. The old state owned political ways of running the company will not cut it in this current climate. As pervious poster said, expansion is required to be competitive and it is a good thing. Just take the pain that comes with it, and if done properly the company will thrive