Aer Lingus Strike

[sinbadsailor]

nice generalisation

I know but take a group of workers, ask them individually to change something about their daily work and you will get a preformatted response.

'..change in work practices...' or '...down tools...'

All I'm saying is that unions do program their workers to think a certain way and to act in the same manner when provoked. The union would be powerless if this was not the case, they need unbridled support for their actions...

 

[z108]

I work for a large US corporation and my salary ls lower than the equivalent engineer grade in California. I wonder what would be the reaction if the employees in California went on strike because we in Ireland are paid less ?

Lets compare it to the Aer Lingus fiasco.

I wonder what would be the reaction if the employees in Ireland went on strike because workers in eastern europe/China are paid less ? Ireland would return to a 1980's type situation and investment would flee the country. The Aer Lingus pilots are greedy and immature in my opinion. They need someone like Michael O' Leary to take them over. This will happen once they destroy the company and its share price with their stupid behaviour.

 

[sinbadsailor]

Agreed, for a group that has a major shareholding in the company, they are not being very intelligent with their actions regarding their investment.

Old state-mentality wrapped up in a new private sector, publicly traded suit.

I see Aer Lingus' future is blue!

 

[Firefly]

So are we all in agreement then that Belfast is not part of Ireland and part of the UK

 

[Purple]

So are we all in agreement then that Belfast is not part of Ireland and part of the UK

From an economic perspective anyway.

 

[redstar]

Originally Posted by sign
I wonder what would be the reaction if the employees in Ireland went on strike because workers in eastern europe/China are paid less ? Ireland would return to a 1980's type situation and investment would flee the country. The Aer Lingus pilots are greedy and immature in my opinion. They need someone like Michael O' Leary to take them over. This will happen once they destroy the company and its share price with their stupid behaviour.

Agreed. The union is just trying to flex some muscle to see whos the 'real' boss at Aer Lingus.

Originally Posted by Firefly
So are we all in agreement then that Belfast is not part of Ireland and part of the UK

Not just economically, but legally too. British law and taxes apply in Belfast. The UN recognises Northern Ireland as part of the UK.
Now, as to whether it should be part of the UK is another story for another thread ....

 

[sinbadsailor]

So are we all in agreement then that Belfast is not part of Ireland and part of the UK

Sure. Isnt that why the package for the pilots is different? Pensions dont work the same and you are dealing in sterling rather than euro's. Has no-one considered the fact that maybe the pilots who will be taking these jobs are prefectly happy with what is on offer! The unions don't have any jurasdiction once we go outside the republic? It's a stunt for some reason and nothing else.

 

[aircobra19]

The pilots are simply defending their turf. Which they are entitled to do. Of course the company won't stop at the pilots it will do the same thing throughout the company. With the exception of the managment of course as they'll always find a way to pad their wallets.

I've seen it on other industries. People work for a pittance, or for nothing in order to get into an industry, undercutting everyone thats already in it, and breaking the norms in that area. Once they finally get into the industry they find that the pay and conditions they undercut everyone to get no longer exist. They've devalued they industry and ultimately their own skills. Once an industry becomes solely governed by cost job security is gone. The work will simply move to the next low cost center in the world.

That said people in high paying jobs are never going to get empathy from people financially worse off. But that doesn't mean they should accept erosion of their working conditions.

 

[aircobra19]

Might I also add here, that the reason the American companies moved here had a good deal to do with lower wages than were paid in the US. If American multinationals hadn't moved here then our wages wouldn't have risen as they have, and thus public sector pay rises wouldn't have been quite as generous, and Air Lingus pilots would be on less money.

There was more to it than that. Theres was an english speaking, high tech skills pools. Also access into the EC and europe.

I work for a large US corporation and my salary ls lower than the equivalent engineer grade in California. I wonder what would be the reaction if the employees in California went on strike because we in Ireland are paid less ?

So what being on a lesser salary/conditions is a good thing?

 

[Purple]

With the exception of the managment of course as they'll always find a way to pad their wallets.

Are you suggesting that the people who run companies are ethically and morally bankrupt? If so that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation isn't it? You seem to be stuck in the “Workers” and “management” mindset. It’s a nice simple idea but it doesn’t reflect the reality and is offensive to both groups that you seek to pigeon hole.

I've seen it on other industries. People work for a pittance, or for nothing in order to get into an industry, undercutting everyone thats already in it, and breaking the norms in that area. Once they finally get into the industry they find that the pay and conditions they undercut everyone to get no longer exist. They've devalued they industry and ultimately their own skills. Once an industry becomes solely governed by cost job security is gone. The work will simply move to the next low cost center in the world.

Can you give an example?

There was more to it than that. Theres was an english speaking, high tech skills pools. Also access into the EC and europe.

It was about cheap labour and low taxes, the low taxes bit being 80% of the equation. And now after they have helped to increase our living standards they are going to Poland and China etc and will help to raise living standards there. This is not the purpose of moving there but it is a consequence. Are you suggesting that poor countries having access to better paying jobs is a bad thing?

 

[sinbadsailor]

That said people in high paying jobs are never going to get empathy from people financially worse off. But that doesn't mean they should accept erosion of their working conditions.

I see erosion of working conditions as being forced to work in an un airconditioned building, or being pressured into working 60 hours a week, or being given no leeway to take time off in family emergencies, you know, real world problems.

I dont however, see erosion of work conditions as asking current employees to take a day or two out of their 35 days annual leave, or asking them to change to a different pension scheme etc!

The overall problem with Aer Lingus, and this includes management, is that they want to keep all of the perks, leave, pensions etc while being a public company. Going public means that your costs are paramount to the business, the bottom line becomes all important. The eomployees cannot dictate how it is run, the market will and there has to me a mentality shift and it is simply not happening at the Airport.

 

[aircobra19]

Are you suggesting that the people who run companies are ethically and morally bankrupt? If so that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation isn't it? You seem to be stuck in the “Workers” and “management” mindset. It’s a nice simple idea but it doesn’t reflect the reality and is offensive to both groups that you seek to pigeon hole.

Will we see all levels of Aer Lingus Managment from the top to the bottom, being based outside of Ireland, and new managment staff of all levels being brought in with lower rates of pay and conditions than existing staff? If theres lower costs to be taken advantage of why not include managment in that.

It was about cheap labour and low taxes, the low taxes bit being 80% of the equation. .

Theres always been other places with lower taxes and cheaper than Ireland. So they can't be the only reasons.

Are you suggesting that poor countries having access to better paying jobs is a bad thing?

Are you saying you shouldn't try and defend your pay and conditions?

 

[Sunny]

The pilots are simply defending their turf. Which they are entitled to do. Of course the company won't stop at the pilots it will do the same thing throughout the company. With the exception of the managment of course as they'll always find a way to pad their wallets.

But that is what is stupid about this strike. In very few other companies do employees own so a large stake so they should have an interest in supporting the management and not damaging the airline. If they don't like the decision, they can voice their discontent at the next shareholders meeting alongside Michael O Leary who by the way must think all his birthdays have come at once over the past few weeks. Thats where their real power lies. But why do the pilots have the right to damage the value of EVERY employees shareholding in the company??

 

[aircobra19]

I see erosion of working conditions as being forced to work in an un airconditioned building, or being pressured into working 60 hours a week, or being given no leeway to take time off in family emergencies, you know, real world problems.

I dont however, see erosion of work conditions as asking current employees to take a day or two out of their 35 days annual leave, or asking them to change to a different pension scheme etc!

You mean like pilots been demoted for refusing to fly extra sectors, or pilots who should be on sick leave being pressured into flying instead. Promotions only being blocked in order to bring in lower paid staff. Promotion blocked or no job security unless you relocate to another country.

The overall problem with Aer Lingus, and this includes management, is that they want to keep all of the perks, leave, pensions etc while being a public company. Going public means that your costs are paramount to the business, the bottom line becomes all important. The eomployees cannot dictate how it is run, the market will and there has to me a mentality shift and it is simply not happening at the Airport.

As far as I'm aware pilots pay and conditions are on roughly on a par with "similar" airlines around europe. The pilots are not striking about the shannon move. They are striking at the companies attempt to circumvent existing agreements which are obviously aimed at reducing the pilots pay and conditions. If you want to talk about cost cutting. How about Dermot Mannion's 200k top up to his pension. Or his basic salary of €380,000. No worries about costs there.

 

[sinbadsailor]

You mean like pilots been demoted for refusing to fly extra sectors, or pilots who should be on sick leave being pressured into flying instead. Promotions only being blocked in order to bring in lower paid staff. Promotion blocked or no job security unless you relocate to another country.

Are you talking about Aer Lingus, or the 'other' Irish airline? I can't see any union letting the above happen without a serious flight!

As far as I'm aware pilots pay and conditions are on roughly on a par with "similar" airlines around europe. The pilots are not striking about the shannon move. They are striking at the companies attempt to circumvent existing agreements which are obviously aimed at reducing the pilots pay and conditions.

It's as simple as this. The union have no jurasdiction over employees in another country. The action is unwarranted. Each local market is a unit in itself. If Aer Lingus turn around and try to 'erode' the 'working conditions' of the 'Irish' pilots, then plan action. As far as I know these UK pilots wont be members of an Irish union?

If you want to talk about cost cutting. How about Dermot Mannion's 200k top up to his pension. Or his basic salary of €380,000. No worries about costs there.

Did I or did I not state that management as well as employees in Aer Lingus need to change the mentality. The CEO of Aer Lingus is far from perfect in his business decisions, Shannon is a major misjudgement, but I doubt Aer Lingus is making that decision by itself, if you know what I mean!

 

[aircobra19]

But that is what is stupid about this strike. In very few other companies do employees own so a large stake so they should have an interest in supporting the management and not damaging the airline. If they don't like the decision, they can voice their discontent at the next shareholders meeting alongside Michael O Leary who by the way must think all his birthdays have come at once over the past few weeks. Thats where their real power lies. But why do the pilots have the right to damage the value of EVERY employees shareholding in the company??

Look at the bigger picture. For years the pilots have had been back and forward through one dispute after another as the management make and turn around then break one agreement after another. Its like standing on quicksand. What the managment are doing now is trying to break all agreements. Its not just AerLingus pilots have a problem with this the international body [SIZE=-1]IFALPA have got involved now.

The pilots care enough about the company and their careers to have invested heavily in it, even [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]their pension funds. Thats not nothing. [/SIZE]

 

[sinbadsailor]

[SIZE=-1]The pilots care enough about the company and their careers to have invested heavily in it, even [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]their pension funds. Thats not nothing.[/SIZE]

The pilots union you mean. I would have serious doubts that each and every pilot wanted to invest the amounts required in what was essentially and excercise to buy shares just to prevent Mr OLeary from buying them. From and investment point of view, I don't think it was a wise move

 

[Sunny]

Look at the bigger picture. For years the pilots have had been back and forward through one dispute after another as the management make and turn around then break one agreement after another. Its like standing on quicksand. What the managment are doing now is trying to break all agreements. Its not just AerLingus pilots have a problem with this the international body [SIZE=-1]IFALPA have got involved now. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The pilots care enough about the company and their careers to have invested heavily in it, even [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]their pension funds. Thats not nothing. [/SIZE]

What agreement is Aer lings breaking? The labour court already said they are entitled to hire workers at local rates outside Ireland. I don't see any other Aer Lingus union shouting from the rooftops. Why are the pilots so special?

 

[aircobra19]

Are you talking about Aer Lingus, or the 'other' Irish airline? I can't see any union letting the above happen without a serious flight!

I leave you draw your own conclusions. But thats what the pilots don't want. Obviously.

It's as simple as this. The union have no jurasdiction over employees in another country. The action is unwarranted. Each local market is a unit in itself. If Aer Lingus turn around and try to 'erode' the 'working conditions' of the 'Irish' pilots, then plan action. As far as I know these UK pilots wont be members of an Irish union?

Your thinking sole in terms of Ireland. The aviation industry is global. Breaking pilot agreements and unions effects the industry globally. Which is why [SIZE=-1]IFALPA are involved. [/SIZE]

Did I or did I not state that management as well as employees in Aer Lingus need to change the mentality. The CEO of Aer Lingus is far from perfect in his business decisions, Shannon is a major misjudgement, but I doubt Aer Lingus is making that decision by itself, if you know what I mean!

Yes I agree. The style of managment seems to be lets cause conflict because we might gain something out of it, with no realisation that conflict and disputes harms the company, and the bottom line more than the gain they are trying to achieve.

Actually no.

 

[aircobra19]

What agreement is Aer lings breaking? The labour court already said they are entitled to hire workers at local rates outside Ireland. I don't see any other Aer Lingus union shouting from the rooftops. Why are the pilots so special?

Its all over the press which agreements. If you make an agreement then go out of your way to to circumvent it. You really can't be trusted to stand over anything you've said.

Like the old joke. How do you know if theres a pilot in the room. They'll tell you. Pilots like to think they're special, but its a simple case of supply and demand.

Pilots can't be trained overnight and not just anyone can be a pilot. You also can't just move a pilot from one aircraft type to another over night. So its like a resource that has to be carefully managed as you can't increase supply instantly on demand. Since you can't operate an airline without pilots its resource you can't do without. (Not yet any way). Its also an expensive resource to train and maintain. So basically pilots are a critical resource for an airline.