What is America doing wrong these days?

The trouble with guns are that they are an industry in themselves. And a very powerful and profitable one at that. Whether it is international or on a countries internal soil, they are targeted to buyers, marketed and sold in the same way as any other product. The arms companies send the message that bad people have them, good people need them to protect themselves from the bad people....but what if the bad people get newer guns (with upgraded features, lower weights, easier to smuggle etc or course), then the good need bigger guns to be safe....you see where it is going.

As long as they are produced, marketed, bought and sold, they will only become a bigger and bigger problem, everywhere.

Think of it this way, how many mobile phones did you see 15 years ago? And now? Who has them?

Same with guns, a pistol is the same as a basic mobile, easy to get, reliable and cheap

The companies that manufacture them need to be targeted, eveything else is futile!
 
Sn@kebite said:
Gangs have drugs and imo drugs bring capital into the US economy.
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I would think the flow of drug money would be out of the US from (to make a base generalisation) deprived crack addicted criminals and middle class cocaine users and towards the enemies of the US such as the cocaine growers in Columbia and the Taliban Opium growers in Afghanistan.
The US spends a fortune on trying to eradicate the drugs problem and along with the capital costs due to violent crime and not forgetting the tragic human costs I would think their society values drug dealers with the same contempt as our society .
Sn@kebite said:
Do you agree that where there's guns/drugs there's always money? - I do.
Yet when we hear on news that there's been a drug bust, we see images of the drugs on tables and the weapons, but we never see the cash stacked onto a table. Why is this? - Could it be that they don't want us to see it because we might start wondering where this cash goes? - I doubt it gets incinerated along with the drugs or melted down along with the weapons
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Money is the motivating factor for all of it of course.
It's human nature that cops will always exist who will find either drugs or money and confiscate it for themselves but any money reported then becomes state property.
Are you speculating that the NSA/CIA etc creates a slush fund from drug money and uses it to fund black ops ?
 
sign said:
Are you speculating that the NSA/CIA etc creates a slush fund from drug money and uses it to fund black ops ?
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I don't know about it being used in black ops. But i think the drug money is being kept by someone and it's not being used to help anyone.
 
Just some random thoughts....

I've just finished reading a biography of Woody Guthrie - Ramblin' Man. I'm amazed at the relative strength and prominence of the Communist Party in the US before the war, particularly in the entertainment industry. It does seem that the McCarthy-ism era wiped out any hint of a left wing in US politics.

I've just started reading http://www.amazon.com/Gangster-Capitalism-United-Globalization-Organized/dp/0786716711 (Gangster Capitalism), which seems to show
- how the actions taken by the US to try to control organised crime have actually fuelled the gans
- how the real criminals are the multi-national corporations
 
RainyDay said:
Just some random thoughts....

I've just finished reading a biography of Woody Guthrie - Ramblin' Man. I'm amazed at the relative strength and prominence of the Communist Party in the US before the war, particularly in the entertainment industry. It does seem that the McCarthy-ism era wiped out any hint of a left wing in US politics.

I've just started reading http://www.amazon.com/Gangster-Capitalism-United-Globalization-Organized/dp/0786716711 (Gangster Capitalism), which seems to show
- how the actions taken by the US to try to control organised crime have actually fuelled the gans
- how the real criminals are the multi-national corporations
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I'm a big fan of Woody Guthrie so I'm not knocking your reading material, but do books like this not just reinforce your own views/biases? If I was reading them it would be me looking at the other sides’ views but you...? :D
 
shnaek said:
Gun control has to be an issue. If it is easy to get guns, then there will be much more gun crime. It's a race to the bottom. Everyone needs a gun, because everyone else has one.
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There are 31 states in the US that issue permits to carry a concealed weapon and they have on average, much lower violent crime and murder rates than states that don't. Last time I did any research on the issue (just over five years ago) I was shocked to discover that the nine US states with persistently the lowest violent crime rates all issued concealed weapon permits.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily follow that issuing concealed weapon permits to citizens will lower rates of violent crime but I just wanted to put across some facts from the opposing case.

I know the OP specifically asked about the US but gun control debates sometimes seem to forget that other countries besides the US allow gun ownership. Israel and Switzerland both have what we would consider very lax gun ownership laws, with virtually any citizen over a certain age without a criminal record allowed to obtain a gun permit. Both have gun ownership rates as high or higher than the states but nothing like the same rates of violent crime and murder.

I don't think it is gun ownership that is the problem although it is a compounding variable.
 
MrMan said:
Even with the alarming rate of gun ownership in the US I don't think this scenario would have been any differnet than in Ireland for the simple reason that as far as I know it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in public. you may keep a weapon on your property to 'protect' your property, but out in the streets it is as illegal for the law abiding citizen to bear arms as it is for the gangs. I am open to correction.
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It is also illegal to assault people, but this didn't stop them attacking us. Do you think they wouldn't have armed themselves because it is 'illegal to carry a concealed weapon?'


MrMan said:
You can't legally buy guns in Ireland, but its fair to say the gun culture is rapidly expanding and furthermore I doubt alot of the gun crime ensued by gangs, dealers etc have been carried out with legally obtained weapons, so is the wide accessability to guns in the US really strictly related to high crime rates or would it be fair to say that problems run alot deeper than that
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Gun culture is more prevelant than it was in the past, but the press has blown it wildly out of proportion. Of course drug lords aren't using legally obtained weapons, but if they could be legally obtained then they may be armed from the lords all the way down to the addicted users.

Indeed the problems run deeper than that in the US. I wouldn't doubt it. But to say that guns don't contribute ... well, lets say I'd have a hard time believing that.


room305 said:
I don't think it is gun ownership that is the problem although it is a compounding variable.
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Out of interest then and in light of those stats, what would you think the problem is?
 
shnaek said:
It is also illegal to assault people, but this didn't stop them attacking us. Do you think they wouldn't have armed themselves because it is 'illegal to carry a concealed weapon?'



Gun culture is more prevelant than it was in the past, but the press has blown it wildly out of proportion. Of course drug lords aren't using legally obtained weapons, but if they could be legally obtained then they may be armed from the lords all the way down to the addicted users.

Indeed the problems run deeper than that in the US. I wouldn't doubt it. But to say that guns don't contribute ... well, lets say I'd have a hard time believing that.



Out of interest then and in light of those stats, what would you think the problem is?
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Sounds trite and simplistic maybe, but I guess one thing Room305 may be alluding to is the American psyche. A generalization I know, but I've had enough experience I think of Americans to discern a pattern. I've noticed that Americans can be very self righteous about...well..their 'rights' in the broadest sense of the word. They demand very high standards and levels of service for example as consumers - and have you ever had an argument with an American? They don't back down easily in the way that some Irish people can make vague concessions (e.g. "well I suppose...maybe you're right etc") If this quite confrontational attitude is combined with easy availability of firearms...well...
 
It is also illegal to assault people, but this didn't stop them attacking us. Do you think they wouldn't have armed themselves because it is 'illegal to carry a concealed weapon?'
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Thats part of my point, I don't think the criminal element need to have lax gun laws because they don't operate within the law. To those of us living in Ireland the thought of every second Irish adult owning a firearm would seem like the beginning of the end, but I don't really see that increased gun ratios would lead to an out break of devastation. I wouldn't like to see us going down the same route because i feel that it brings a certain level of paranoia, If somebody is just plain bad they will cause damage gun or no gun, the problem is a social one.
 
Purple said:
I'm a big fan of Woody Guthrie so I'm not knocking your reading material, but do books like this not just reinforce your own views/biases? If I was reading them it would be me looking at the other sides’ views but you...? :D
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Don't assume that that's all I read! I've been through a biog of Thatcher, a book by (or was it about) PJ Mara, a book about green/ethical living (which isn't particularly my thing) and a pile of fiction of varying quality over the past year or so.
 
RainyDay said:
Don't assume that that's all I read! I've been through a biog of Thatcher, a book by (or was it about) PJ Mara, a book about green/ethical living (which isn't particularly my thing) and a pile of fiction of varying quality over the past year or so.
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All since you have gone over to the public sector side of the force, eh? ;)

Seriously though, I don't assume that's all you read. That's why I don't like you; there's nothing worse than disagreeing with someone that knows more about the issue in question than you do!:p
 
Then again...if you wanted to...you could take a completely different angle on American poverty, crime, gun culture, rich vs poor by blaming it all on the Illuminati?
 
shnaek said:
Out of interest then and in light of those stats, what would you think the problem is?
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I'm sure there are a host of factors but I think the break-up of the family unit and rise in the number of single-parent families is a factor that cannot be ignored. Bureau of Justice statistics across multiple states point to an almost direct correlation between crime rates and the number of single parent families in a neighbourhood. This correlation is much stronger than similar studies conducted based on race or income. In fact, the relationship is so strong that if statistical analysis results are controlled for just this factor, it virtually wipes out any correlation between crime rates and income or race.

I don't think the relationship is as simple as some researchers make out (correlation doesn't prove causation) and the whole argument often gets dragged down into the murky depths of religious debate which is also in no way helpful.
 
Commercialism, profit-chasing & power. This is the driving factor that is killing our society in every country. Until we all learn to live as proper 'equals' and make decisions for the greater good of humanity, no exceptions, this will continue.

It will ultimately be the demise of all of us.
 
room305 said:
I'm sure there are a host of factors but I think the break-up of the family unit and rise in the number of single-parent families is a factor that cannot be ignored. Bureau of Justice statistics across multiple states point to an almost direct correlation between crime rates and the number of single parent families in a neighbourhood. This correlation is much stronger than similar studies conducted based on race or income. In fact, the relationship is so strong that if statistical analysis results are controlled for just this factor, it virtually wipes out any correlation between crime rates and income or race.
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Wasn't that an argument put forward in the book Freakenomics - States which introduced abortion had less crime due to falling numbers of single parents?
 
sinbadsailor said:
Commercialism, profit-chasing & power. This is the driving factor that is killing our society in every country. Until we all learn to live as proper 'equals' and make decisions for the greater good of humanity, no exceptions, this will continue.

It will ultimately be the demise of all of us.
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I'm not sure if your opinion is informed by Marx or StarTrek but it's a bit simplistic. Almost all conflicts (ever) are about the ownership or control of resources. It's part of the human condition. A democratic society where the constitution is protected by an independent supreme court (or government of the people, for the people and by the people, as some Yank said;)) is the best we have come up with. All functioning democracies allow a free market within some legal constraints.
 
room305 said:
... or the booger man.
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Is that someone who picks their nose quite a lot?

Seriously though...I'm not saying I'm a firm believer or anything...but it's another slant...another piece of the pie...governments around the world are lying through their teeth to their people in relation to what they're at. At this stage is there anyone left who's naive enough to believe the official line on wars? I'm not even going to go there...but you all know the one in particular I'm alluding to.
So ask yourself...who makes those decisions. American politics as we know is about money...which means that the people who bankroll the parties are the people with the puppet strings. That's how American politics works.

There's a lot more truth to this statement...

Firefly said:
Commercialism, profit-chasing & power. This is the driving factor that is killing our society in every country. Until we all learn to live as proper 'equals' and make decisions for the greater good of humanity, no exceptions, this will continue.

It will ultimately be the demise of all of us.
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...than most of the posts prior to it.
 
Purple said:
A democratic society where the constitution is protected by an independent supreme court (or government of the people, for the people and by the people, as some Yank said;)) is the best we have come up with. All functioning democracies allow a free market within some legal constraints.
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Is what the Americans have democracy? Two parties...both virtually identical. Both bankrolled and owned by major corporations...
 
Gabriel said:
Is what the Americans have democracy? Two parties...both virtually identical. Both bankrolled and owned by major corporations...
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That's not what they have. Again your selective use of fact/ opinion paints an inaccurate picture
 
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