Road Safety and the approach in mainland europe

[diarmuidc]

discussion split from property thread in TGD by aj

Both in France and Australia, practice shows that if you start controlling speed and effectively punishing people for it with fines and points penalties, they slow down.

You can't correlate reducation in road deaths with speed cameras. Speed cameras slow people down in the particular spot that they are installed. All fixed cameras in France have signs on the road about 1km before the cameras. The standard practics here is everyone driving on the motorway at 140-150, suddenly everyone slows to 130 for about 2 kms, then back to 150. It's a tax on people who didn't spot the signs.

How do you explain the low death rates on german autobahns most of which have no speed limits?

A crack down on bad driving and improvement in the roads would be more effective at controlling road deaths but that would require effort and money. Something politicians are allergic to.

 

[Purple]

How do you explain the low death rates on german autobahns most of which have no speed limits?

Great raods as a result of 70 years of infrastructure investment (some using slave labour), access to very cheap migrant labour and high taxes.

 

[Guest127]

and probably a higher number of safer cars. once you cross the border into northern ireland you will notice large yellow gantries across the roads with cameras on them. one every few miles. continuous filming. and your speed is calculated between the cameras. so no point in slowing down before the camera as diarmuidc says happens in france. I though the french had dramatically reduced road deaths in recent years.

 

[daltonr]

> Great raods as a result of 70 years of infrastructure investment (some
> using slave labour), access to very cheap migrant labour and high taxes.

OK, so we know what we have to do. Now if we could just get Joe Higgins off our back everything would be fine. Any chance if we treated the slaves even more poorly we could do this without the high taxes?

-Rd

 

[ubiquitous]

Great roads as a result of 70 years of infrastructure investment (some using slave labour), access to very cheap migrant labour and high taxes.

The origin of the roads is hardly the issue. As I understand it, a motorway is only classed as a motorway if it meets designated EU standards, so on that basis an Irish motorway should be no different than a German motorway. It does not follow that a motorway built by Martin Cullen should be inherently more or less dangerous than one built by Hitler or Willy Brandt.

 

[daltonr]

It does not follow that a motorway built by Martin Cullen should be inherently more or less dangerous than one built by Hitler or Willy Brandt.

I think anything built by Martin Cullen is likely to be more dangerous than anything built by almost anyone else.

That said, if the punishment for wasting a couple of million quid was that the minister in charge had to go work hands on building a road or a hospital, you might find people like Cullen were a little more cautious about how they waste money.

I have visions of the entiry front-bench in a chain gang breaking rocks on the side of the road.

-Rd

 

[Purple]

The origin of the roads is hardly the issue. As I understand it, a motorway is only classed as a motorway if it meets designated EU standards, so on that basis an Irish motorway should be no different than a German motorway. It does not follow that a motorway built by Martin Cullen should be inherently more or less dangerous than one built by Hitler or Willy Brandt.

The point is that Germany had a head on us when is comes to building roads. They were at it first and didn’t have to worry about planning appeals or safe pass or human rights or paying people or even feeding them in some cases. To ask why they have such good roads and we don’t and ignore the above is absurd.
Willy Brandt was Chancellor between 1969 and 1974 so most of the infrastructure was built by then. He was mayor of Berlin in the late 50’s to the mid 60’s (can’t remember the dates) but I don’t think he built many roads then either.
Hitler on the other hand did build many, many roads, using the methods outlined above.

 

[Calina]

and probably a higher number of safer cars. once you cross the border into northern ireland you will notice large yellow gantries across the roads with cameras on them. one every few miles. continuous filming. and your speed is calculated between the cameras. so no point in slowing down before the camera as diarmuidc says happens in france. I though the french had dramatically reduced road deaths in recent years.

They have. Over the past five years the number of deaths per year has gone from in excess of 7500 down to just - literally - above 5000. I think they're hoping to come in under 5000 for the first time this year. Even so they are still bringing 200ME a year in speeding fines.

There are also a number of studies showing that average speeds are down in tandem with the introduction of the fixed radar cameras and mobile units. The mobile units also check for other infractions such as excess alcohol consumption. Compare that with the hysteria over random breath testing in this country. The cameras are one of their primary tools - visible law enforcement in other words. Every fixed camera is to be found on a map on the website of the relevant government department. In Brittany at least, the website of the biggest newspaper also links to the map of speed cameras in the locality.

As far as I know, if you get banned for any reason in France you also have to retake your driving test. I wish they would do this here. I'm sure the thought of having to re-wait however long to redo your driving test might be a useful deterrant here.

It's not all perfect there - they're still concerned about 1) the high incidence of fatal motorcycle accidents 2) the number of unlicensed drivers 3) too high levels of excess alcohol consumption. The last I heard some politician was also looking at staggering speeding penalties - I don't know if this is right, but currently the penalty for speeding is the same whether you're 4km over the limit, or 60km over the limit.

I would say that one of the chief differences between drivers in Ireland and drivers in Germany is attitude. Most Irish drivers only appear to be afraid of getting caught and the chances of that are near to nil. They certainly don't seem to take into consideration the possibility that they might be killed. To my mind, that's evident of arrogant stupidity.

Most German drivers don't worry about getting caught - they drive with attention to prevailing conditions anyway, regardless of their chances of finding a camera over the next hill. The Finns are the same. Long, empty wide, perfectly surfaced roads and no one doing one km over the speed limit. People keep saying training should fix that but I know no one who drives on a day to day basis the way they drove to pass their driving test. So enforcement is the only way to go.

 

[NOAH]

Until we introduce a proper test, properly qualified driving instructors, stop people driving unaccompanied until they pass the test, better roads in terms of surfaces, signage, layout, a more condsiderate attude by drivers and as that will never happen in our lifetime we can continue on our merry way with needless deaths, eg pulling out in front of a truck.

I drive 4 days a week for a living and the sites I see daily are mind blowing. I am truly thankful to get home safe at the end of the day. I am convinced that a lot of drivers on Irish roads are on a death wish. Witness coming round bends on wrong side of road!!! haring down roads where there are only a few passing points. I could go on and on.

noah

 

[shnaek]

The point is that Germany had a head on us when is comes to building roads.

This is an arguement I hear often from friends of mine who work in the civil service. Fact is, it's a damn poor excuse.

There's a section of road on the Cork -Dublin main road where there's an s-bend with 2 junctions. The Irish solution? Paint some yellow lines on the road. It's a bloody disgrace. And I'm not even talking about motorway, I am talking about straightening the bloody main road between our two main cities at an obviously dangerous point.

The same situation exists on the road between Ballinasloe and Galway. Enough excuses from our Government - fix the bloody road! We don't need a hundred years of road building to straighten out dangerous road on the busiest roads in the country. That at least would be a start, however small. It is not only wrong that these sections of road haven't been widened and straightened, it is shameful and a bloody disgrace. And no amount of talking about what head starts other countries had can paper over that.

 

[ubiquitous]

I think anything built by Martin Cullen is likely to be more dangerous than anything built by almost anyone else.

The point is that Germany had a head on us when is comes to building roads. They were at it first and didn’t have to worry about planning appeals or safe pass or human rights or paying people or even feeding them in some cases. To ask why they have such good roads and we don’t and ignore the above is absurd.
Willy Brandt was Chancellor between 1969 and 1974 so most of the infrastructure was built by then. He was mayor of Berlin in the late 50’s to the mid 60’s (can’t remember the dates) but I don’t think he built many roads then either.
Hitler on the other hand did build many, many roads, using the methods outlined above.

Both of these arguments entirely miss my point.

I will repeat it:
A road (in Ireland or any other EU country) is only designated as a motorway if it meets certain safety and other criteria.

If the road does not meet the relevant criteria it is not classed as something else, ie "dual carriageway" but not as a motorway.

If an Irish road, a German road and an Italian road all qualify for designation as motorways, then it follows that each should be equally safe or dangerous.

Therefore if a "no speed limits" policy is appropriate on German autobahns, there is no reason why it should not be appropriate on equivalent Irish and Italian motorways.

For that reason I support the OPs argument that a blitz on bad driving and bad roads will be a lot more effective in reducing casualties than a blitz on speeding, at least on motorways and other major roads.

 

[dontaskme]

Both of these arguments entirely miss my point.

I will repeat it:
A road (in Ireland or any other EU country) is only designated as a motorway if it meets certain safety and other criteria.

If the road does not meet the relevant criteria it is not classed as something else, ie "dual carriageway" but not as a motorway.

If an Irish road, a German road and an Italian road all qualify for designation as motorways, then it follows that each should be equally safe or dangerous.

Therefore if a "no speed limits" policy is appropriate on German autobahns, there is no reason why it should not be appropriate on equivalent Irish and Italian motorways.

For that reason I support the OPs argument that a blitz on bad driving and bad roads will be a lot more effective in reducing casualties than a blitz on speeding, at least on motorways and other major roads.

I'm open to correction on this but I don't think there is any European spec for motorways, there are regulations but I think they are set at national level.

All German license holders have to do part of their test on the Autobahn and have a number of hours certified driving on the Autobahn before they can sit their test.

Landscape also makes a difference, where the land is flat it is probably safer.

The other element besides the road and the driver is the car and I think the standard of the TÜV, the German equivalent of the NCT is slightly higher.