house renovation -> help needed

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CubicYard1

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Hi,

I bought an old house in Co. Limerick and lived in it for past 2 years - I have just started to renovate it. We left the house and the builder ripped out all the internals (kitchens, bathrooms, carpets etc) - he found some alarming problems ;

There is dry rot in some of the joists. A bathroom leak seems to be the main cause.
There is a small porch which needed a new ceiling but he found dampness and rot in some of the rafters above. The whole porch needs to be completely re-roofed.
Some areas of the downstairs floors are showing signs of damp which need investigation.
Some floorboards upstairs are rotten - cause unknown.

I was in a state of shock when I saw all this but I expected some of it.

I am just wondering where I stand in terms of :
1) The previous owner must have been aware of some of these problems as they have been covered up or disguised - is he liable ?
2) A lot of the damage is obviously over 2 years old - if I put in an insurance claim, what will they say ? Or would they come out and codemn it and cancel my insurance ?!
3) If I fix the most obvious stuff (i.e. the rotting joists that I have seen so far) and patch the house up again, am I liable if I sell and new owers discover problems down the line ?

My builder said if it were his house, he would knock it and rebuild but thats not an option. I intend fixing it as best I can and living in it because I love the area/site/house but if I still have problems, I will sell it.

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
1. No - caveat emptor. Did you get someone to inspect the house who should have picked it up? If yes, you might be able to sue them.
3. No.
2. Don't know I'm afraid.
 
Last edited:
Yes, had a survey done. he spotted a few things but nothing drastic.
There were people living in the house so he couldn't rip up floorboards and carpets to look at joists or pull down ceilings to look at rafter.
I think a surveyor is only liable for things he can see ?
 
If there is a "this was a visual inspection only and no opening up was undertaken" clause, then yes.
 
A surveyor (yours or the mortgage companys) can comment only on what is accessible. Unless you had a full structural survey (which costs a lot of money and involves getting into the loft, lifting carpets and floorboards, analysing borings from joists etc.) then the surveyor essentially confirms 'yes, this is the house specified in the documents, in the location specified, and it is a house (i.e. not a field, or a barn etc.)

Unfortunately the problems which have come to light are 'par for the course' of property ownership. Insurance does not cover refurbishment (which is what your builder appears to be recommending). Given the 'knock it down and build again' comment (which seems rather extreme to be honest!) don't you feel a need for a second opinion from another builder..........or, even at this late stage, a structural survey by a building surveyor which would elicit some specialist advice? It would certainly be cheaper than a total rebuild?
 
Marie said:
A surveyor (yours or the mortgage companys) can comment only on what is accessible. Unless you had a full structural survey (which costs a lot of money and involves getting into the loft, lifting carpets and floorboards, analysing borings from joists etc.) then the surveyor essentially confirms 'yes, this is the house specified in the documents, in the location specified, and it is a house (i.e. not a field, or a barn etc.)

Unfortunately the problems which have come to light are 'par for the course' of property ownership. Insurance does not cover refurbishment (which is what your builder appears to be recommending). Given the 'knock it down and build again' comment (which seems rather extreme to be honest!) don't you feel a need for a second opinion from another builder..........or, even at this late stage, a structural survey by a building surveyor which would elicit some specialist advice? It would certainly be cheaper than a total rebuild?
Click to expand...

Hi Marie,

I dont expect the insurance company to cover refurbishment - I decided to do the refurbishment myself - But its the problems (rotting wood) that I found while starting the refurbishment that I though the insurance company would cover. If I had not started the refurbishment I am sure some of the joists would have collapsed in the near future.
 
CubicYard1 said:
Hi,

I bought an old house in Co. Limerick and lived in it for past 2 years - I have just started to renovate it. We left the house and the builder ripped out all the internals (kitchens, bathrooms, carpets etc) - he found some alarming problems ;

There is dry rot in some of the joists. A bathroom leak seems to be the main cause.
There is a small porch which needed a new ceiling but he found dampness and rot in some of the rafters above. The whole porch needs to be completely re-roofed.
Some areas of the downstairs floors are showing signs of damp which need investigation.
Some floorboards upstairs are rotten - cause unknown.

I was in a state of shock when I saw all this but I expected some of it.

I am just wondering where I stand in terms of :
1) The previous owner must have been aware of some of these problems as they have been covered up or disguised - is he liable ?
2) A lot of the damage is obviously over 2 years old - if I put in an insurance claim, what will they say ? Or would they come out and codemn it and cancel my insurance ?!
3) If I fix the most obvious stuff (i.e. the rotting joists that I have seen so far) and patch the house up again, am I liable if I sell and new owers discover problems down the line ?

My builder said if it were his house, he would knock it and rebuild but thats not an option. I intend fixing it as best I can and living in it because I love the area/site/house but if I still have problems, I will sell it.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Hi - I am sorry for your trouble and hope you are able to fix it up and continue to live in it, as you wish to. My response was really to your first and second points above - no the seller is not 'liable' in any way and as a previous poster wrote its "caveat emptor" (buyer beware). Your insurance documents and a chat with your insurer will confirm whether or not they will cover the expense of joist-replacement and the other work you wish to do but from personal experience insurance does not cover this situation and the condition of a property is usually reflected in the asking-price.

The last part of your question is whether you would be responsible/liable for any subsequent problems with the property if you sell it on. Selling on might be difficult if you do work which is not in accordance with Building Regulations and other statutory safety standards. Your local Council Planning Department and Building Regulations Officer (or a reputable professional builder) can advise you on what these are. A potential buyer would have a survey done before signing papers and base their decision to purchase on that.............after which you have no financial liability for any further problems they may encounter with the property, though of course there is a moral responsibility which everyone decides for themselves. Replacing joists and treating infestations is structural work and requires expert knowledge. There is an excellent online resource for Irish self-builders which would give you access to useful information at http://www.iaosb.com/
 
CubicYard1 said:
Yes, had a survey done. he spotted a few things but nothing drastic.
There were people living in the house so he couldn't rip up floorboards and carpets to look at joists or pull down ceilings to look at rafter.
I think a surveyor is only liable for things he can see ?
Click to expand...

Most surveyors put a clause into their reports which basically prevents them form being sued if problems are discovered at a later stage. One particular time I got a report froma particular engineer & there were more things listed in the report that he did not inspect than what he did inspect. So you'll probably have nothing to stick him with.

ninsaga
 
Thanks for your input Marie and Ninsaga
Builder gutted the house and found even more problems. Many roof rafters are rotten. Lots of structural issues.

I wish I had sold it as it was. Not sure what to do now.
Should I sell as a site or leave the house up in an awful state and try to sell. Not a good time.
 
Leave the house standing - if you knock it down you might not be allowed build on the site again. (Depending on the area you live in).
 
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