Voluntary contributions in another EU state

[Forumuser]

Sorry I just re-read the initial couple of posts and see he has 2 years in Germany.

Is it possible to get to the Irish 520 contributions through IB credits if he defers his COAP until he is 70 as will be allowed under the new rules?Maybe @S class would know that?

If that were somehow possible then I would advise paying into the German system until he has reached the 5 years required there and then apply for both pensions directly with the authorities in each country. The Germans will have no problem paying theirs but Ireland doesn't allow you to be "double insured" in the EU so applying directly for the pensions without invoking EU rules to combine pensions may be a better bet, but only if he can reach the 520 contributions in Ireland without using his German ones, assuming he can defer the COAP. The thing is, maybe you can't defer if you are on IB? Maybe they force you off IB and onto whatever pension you qualify for at 66? Be it COAP or NCOAP Anyone know how that works?

One more question....did he have any children? Child-rearing time will be credited in both systems to some extent.

The minimum voluntary payment in Germany is €96.72 per month. If he has the means it would be worth paying them for 3 years to get the 5 years required to be eleigible for a German pension, even if it's a bit of a gamble IMO.

I think this one is going to end up with him receiving a non-contributory pension in Ireland to be honest and he will be doing faaar better in Ireland on that than he would in Germany. Even if he managed to scrape up the 520 paid contributions his contributory pension would surely fall well below the "full" non-contributory one and he'd need some part of a non-contributory pension anyway, which would then be means tested in any case? It's kind of hard to believe that someone went almost their entire working life without making any real provision for their retirement but I guess it happens.

I agree to all.
Our man will end up on the Irish NC pension. He can pay into the German system to reach the required 5 years minimum input and get a small pension out of that. But the Irish will take that money into consideration as means for his NC pension and take the German pension off the NC payment. He wins nothing that way.
No way he can use IB credits to satisfy the 520 contributory pension rule- it must be contributions. He has a good amount of credits- but they are no good until you reach the 520 contribution line. They would count like contributions for a C pension if he has at least 520 contributions- but that would give him only a higher than the lowest payment- but still not enough to live on.
He will be thrown off IB anyhow when it runs out...not too far away from his 66th birthday. Probably supplementary SW then until they put him on the NC pension after his 66th birthday.
There might be kids abroad- he is not sure. No credits in that one. It would be contributions anyhow he would need.
Yes- he is a bit of a character. He lived life as he wanted it to live- but there is always a price to pay in the end.

 

[Forumuser]

I discussed the problems of our man mentioned above with someone very recently. The person I had a conversation with thinks that our man's plan of paying voluntary contributions into the German pension system and using the contributions then in combination with his Irish contributions to reach the 520 PRSI level for an EU pro rata contribution pension won't work. He thinks that the Irish side will reject the German voluntary contributions- they must be contributions made through work only. The department would disallow his claim for a contributory pension under such conditions. He could not name the source of his information.
Is he right? Does anyone have a link confirming that you cannot use foreign EU voluntary contributions to reach the Irish 520 PRSI level?

 

[tom1220]

A couple of thoughts, if he is German and grew up there he may have had additional periods that count towards pension entitlements and may not be on his radar:
- any apprenticeship to learn a profession
- studying at a university or similar
- mandatory military service or equivalent social service

 

[Forumuser]

A couple of thoughts, if he is German and grew up there he may have had additional periods that count towards pension entitlements and may not be on his radar:
- any apprenticeship to learn a profession
- studying at a university or similar
- mandatory military service or equivalent social service

Everything mentioned counts only for the 35 year waiting time for the old age pension- but brings no increase in his pension entitlements.

The question about the voluntary contributions is not answered yet. Anyone?

 

[Bronte]

Question: In paying voluntarily into another EU system he will have an overlapping of Irish PRSI credits and German voluntary contributions. The PRSI sickness credits and the voluntary German contributions would be in the same time window. Regulations say that Irish credits would displace the voluntary contributions in a pro rata calculation of his future payments. Does that mean that a payment of voluntary contributions in Germany would be a waste of money- or do they count for a fulfillment of the 10 year rule- but will be ignored later in the pro rata calculation?

I don't know the answer to your question but my understanding of my husband's calculations meant only 52 weeks per year of contributions can be counted. Every EU country has it's own rules. We were told us they would take the calculation that gave him the best benefit. It was extremely complicated and it requires liasing between 2 countries systems and language issues.

Surely this question, because it relates to Ireland, you should pick up the phone and call the Irish pensions office (Donegal or Sligo) they are really nice people to speak with.

His 3.5 years payments in Germany will count towards his Irish state pension calculation.

 

[Bronte]

Yes- he would.
But there is an inheritance waiting down the road- and that would probably take away a lot of the NC pension money. It won't happen tomorrow- but the clock is ticking.

Presumably he has no assets? Then he could buy a home with the inheritance and still get the state non contributory pension.

 

[Bronte]

A couple of thoughts, if he is German and grew up there he may have had additional periods that count towards pension entitlements and may not be on his radar:
- any apprenticeship to learn a profession
- studying at a university or similar
- mandatory military service or equivalent social service

Unemployment time may also count.

 

[Forumuser]

I don't know the answer to your question but my understanding of my husband's calculations meant only 52 weeks per year of contributions can be counted. Every EU country has it's own rules. We were told us they would take the calculation that gave him the best benefit. It was extremely complicated and it requires liasing between 2 countries systems and language issues.

Surely this question, because it relates to Ireland, you should pick up the phone and call the Irish pensions office (Donegal or Sligo) they are really nice people to speak with.

His 3.5 years payments in Germany will count towards his Irish state pension calculation.

Indeed- only 52 contributions per year are taken into account for any pension calculation. And- yes- his 3.5 years of German contribution are taken into account as well for the pro rata EU pension. It is very complicated- as we see in my question as well.
I contacted Sligo last year for our man, but got no answer. I was told that it can be only decided when he hands in his pension application.
It is too late for any action at that time.

 

[Forumuser]

Unemployment time may also count.

It yields very very little.
He got a social contribution account audit done by the Germans some years ago and has already all the facts and figures in writing.

 

[Bronte]

It yields very very little.
He got a social contribution account audit done by the Germans some years ago and has already all the facts and figures in writing.

From your later posts it sounds more like he is trying to not reduce his inheritance. Is this substantial, can he make an income from it, does he own property?

 

[Forumuser]

From your later posts it sounds more like he is trying to not reduce his inheritance. Is this substantial, can he make an income from it, does he own property?

He has nothing inherited yet. It will be probably only money, something between 50k and 100k. He will not become rich- and it may might be just enough to pay for a totally run down cottage in the sticks to live in.

 

[Forumuser]

I don't know the answer to your question but my understanding of my husband's calculations meant only 52 weeks per year of contributions can be counted. Every EU country has it's own rules. We were told us they would take the calculation that gave him the best benefit. It was extremely complicated and it requires liasing between 2 countries systems and language issues.

Surely this question, because it relates to Ireland, you should pick up the phone and call the Irish pensions office (Donegal or Sligo) they are really nice people to speak with.

His 3.5 years payments in Germany will count towards his Irish state pension calculation.

I finally got a person in SW who had some knowledge of the problem.
Until 2015 it was possible to use voluntary contributions from an EU country to bring you over the 520 PRSI level- provided you had 260 PRSI contributions already achieved through work.
The regulations changed that year. Since then you need 520 PRSI contributions which must be provided by work only. This rule also applies to all PRSI contributions you acquired abroad in an EU country and want to use to reach the 520 PRSI level.

 

[Forumuser]

I finally got a person in SW who had some knowledge of the problem.
Until 2015 it was possible to use voluntary contributions from an EU country to bring you over the 520 PRSI level- provided you had 260 PRSI contributions already achieved through work.
The regulations changed that year. Since then you need 520 PRSI contributions which must be provided by work only. This rule also applies to all PRSI contributions you acquired abroad in an EU country and want to use to reach the 520 PRSI level.

I came across the above problem again last week while speaking to somebody in SW.

I was told now by the other person from SW that the person I was talking to before has either misunderstood me- or I have misunderstood that person.

The above statement( # 32) is only true for a standard Irish only contributory pension. You get it only through a minimum of 520 Irish contributions achieved through work. Foreign contributions do not come into play here.

But if a person is short of the required minimum 520 contributions, s/he can go for a pro rata EU pension and add foreign contributions to the Irish record to get such a pension. It does NOT matter if those foreign contributions have been provided through work or through voluntary contributions. The only thing what matters is that those contributions have been paid. Neither does the amount matter you had to pay for those voluntary contributions. In fact, the Irish side cannot refuse any foreign voluntary contributions at all. The EU regulations say that both sides- the Irish and the EU side- must accept each others records as facts in a pro rata EU pension. There cannot be a "pick and choose" from any side. That would be contrary to the EU social treaties and therefore illegal. So if the foreign voluntary contributions have been legally paid for in another EU jurisdiction and fulfill all regulations in that EU country, the Irish side must accept that and count all contributions( work related and voluntary contributions) for a pro rata EU pension- as long as there is no overlapping of the foreign contributions with either contributions or credits on the Irish side. In cases of overlapping only Irish contributions and credits will be counted- and the foreign contributions which overlap with the Irish contributions and credits will be ignored.

In a nutshell: Yes- it is possible to use EU voluntary contributions to reach the 520 PRSI level as long as there is no overlapping preventing the applicant to reach the required 520 contributions.