Gerry Adams Victim Blaming - Time to go?

[dereko1969]

I'm no fan of Sinn Féin but following Gerry Adams' bizarre decision to blame the victims of his organisations killings with the assistance of "someone" in the Garda surely if they want to play a part in the future of this State then he needs to go and be replaced by either Mary Lou McDonald or Pearse Doherty.

Frankly, if he stayed it would probably harm their electoral chances, which I wouldn't mind too much, but allied to his unbelievable claims of ignorance of sexual abuse by high level members of his organisation surely he needs to go?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...-officers-laissez-faire-over-safety-1.1616679

 

[Purple]

I'm no fan of Sinn Féin but following Gerry Adams' bizarre decision to blame the victims of his organisations killings with the assistance of "someone" in the Garda surely if they want to play a part in the future of this State then he needs to go and be replaced by either Mary Lou McDonald or Pearse Doherty.

Frankly, if he stayed it would probably harm their electoral chances, which I wouldn't mind too much, but allied to his unbelievable claims of ignorance of sexual abuse by high level members of his organisation surely he needs to go?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...-officers-laissez-faire-over-safety-1.1616679

He was too busy not being in the IRA to notice any of that stuff.

 

[Purple]

This is like blaming cyclists for road deaths!

 

[TarfHead]

he was too busy not being in the ira to notice any of that stuff.

+1

 

[blueband]

I'm no fan of Sinn Féin but following Gerry Adams' bizarre decision to blame the victims of his organisations killings with the assistance of "someone" in the Garda surely if they want to play a part in the future of this State then he needs to go and be replaced by either Mary Lou McDonald or Pearse Doherty.

if you are no fan of sinn fein then why do you care in the least if he goes or not?...or indeed who replaces him!

 

[dereko1969]

I'm no fan of Sinn Féin but following Gerry Adams' bizarre decision to blame the victims of his organisations killings with the assistance of "someone" in the Garda surely if they want to play a part in the future of this State then he needs to go and be replaced by either Mary Lou McDonald or Pearse Doherty.

if you are no fan of sinn fein then why do you care in the least if he goes or not?...or indeed who replaces him!

Because I think it's important for Democracy that there is a credible opposition.

 

[Sunny]

if you are no fan of sinn fein then why do you care in the least if he goes or not?...or indeed who replaces him!

That doesn't make any sense. Considering Sinn Fein could well end up in coalition government, I think anyone is entitled to voice their opinion on Sinn Fein or any other party leader. If we limited people to only having opinions on the party they support, political debate would be pretty boring.

To be fair to Gerry Adams, we elected him. Just like we elected Martin Ferris. Not like Gerry has changed his views since entering the Dail.

 

[Betsy Og]

The funniest thing (ok, maybe oddest is more appropriate) was him on Newstalk this morning saying something like collusion within the guards was abhorrent or appaling or some such - but presumably we are to believe that the people who pulled the trigger remain as blameless as ever.

In fairness I'd say he's only gagging for this international peace & reconciliation forum to get going so he can go in, get everything off his chest, and move on (he mentioned it about 3 or 4 times in one interview). No more cringey denials of no involvement with the IRA etc. AFAIK Martin McGuinness has never denied his role and the truth doesnt seem to haunt him as much as Gerry's fiction.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Most revealing of all was his assertion that the RUC officers were "bravely doing their duty as they saw it" (that's Grizzly doing his Peace Process hypocrisy party piece) just as "IRA volunteers were bravely doing their duty as they saw it". Parity of esteem I think they call it - the IRA was on a moral par with the security forces on either side of the border, I think they even go so far as to regard Loyalist sectarian gangs to have the same moral standing.

I don't know why Sinn Fein/IRA are so gagging for a truth and reconciliation tribunal. Do they really think that an independent observer is going to equate the terrorist murder of two RUC men with the work which these officers were doing in carrying out their duty.

 

[Purple]

I don't know why Sinn Fein/IRA are so gagging for a truth and reconciliation tribunal. Do they really think that an independent observer is going to equate the terrorist murder of two RUC men with the work which these officers were doing in carrying out their duty.

I'm not one for drawing moral equivalences; I'd never suggest that the RUC were on par with the IRA or UVF etc. but they were far from clean and whatever levels of collusion that went on between IRA terrorists murders and the Gardaí it was nothing when compared to what went on between the RUC & British Army (and associated "security forces") and Loyalist terrorist groups.

Thankfully we have moved on for the most part and I've nothing but admiration for the PSNI, more so than I have for the Gardaí.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Grizzly states "IRA volunteers were acting bravely in doing their duty as they saw it". Of course, this does not necessarily assign any judgment to Grizzly himself. What he needs to answer is "were they acting bravely in doing their duty as he saw it?" We know his answer is "yes" though his reluctance to be counted amongst the ranks of the brave IRA exhibits a somewhat uncharacteristic modest streak. We are not awfully interested in Grizzly's moral compass, he will always have an appeal in the 26 counties limited to border areas.

What is much more important is the attitude of Fierce Doherty and Mary Lou. Let's ask them straight "as you see it were the terrorist murders of these two RUC officers justifiable brave deeds on the part of the IRA volunteers involved?"

 

[Betsy Og]

[I don't know why Sinn Fein/IRA are so gagging for a truth and reconciliation tribunal. Do they really think that an independent observer is going to equate the terrorist murder of two RUC men with the work which these officers were doing in carrying out their duty.[/QUOTE]

My guess is that it would definitively draw a line under "the troubles" from a legal point of view - it wouldnt be a tribunal of enquiry, it would be a "forum" - an opportunity to divulge all facts under the cover of immunity (the conversation we had on here about 3 weeks ago at the start of a somewhat controversial thread - lets not go down that road again!!).

So a clean slate for those willing to tell all. I presume the end date of immunity would be the GF Agreement - all this may have been worked out already - but couldnt see it applying to RIRA & co.

Given that most of the gun carriers of SF have been in & out of prison for offences & are already "out the gap" - and maybe I'm being naieve here - but could it be that Republicans actually want to offer up all the old baggage for the betterment of Norn Iron???

Its a matter of debate whether such a raking up of history would help or hinder things, or is it far enough in the past to go at it?? - I dont honestly know the answer, but I could see how it would be a relief for all those carrying secrets/threat of prosecution to get immunity and tell all.

I dont think there will be an adjudicator and any formal "judgement" as such, but presumably participants would be open to cross examination to establish all the facts required by victims/families. From a purely selfish point of view I would find it fascinating - however I realise my potential fascination hardly ranks up there in terms of whether it should happen.

What do others think of the notion?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

What do others think of the notion?

Don't like it at all. We can see from this blog how people have totally different slants on the "truth". There is no absolute truth and its pursuit can only be divisive.

For example, Purple observes that collusion by the Gardaí in vile crimes was not on the same scale as that of the RUC. That may be true but has he ever stopped to ask the following question? How was it that a handful of housing estates in West Belfast and the Bogside were able to sustain a 30 year sophisticated guerrilla campaign against all the might of the British security apparatus? Simply not possible without the collusion, support and provision of materiel from hostile elements in the establishment of a neighbouring country. Haughey, Blaney, Boland, Captain Kelly etc. made sure the Provos got off to a flying start and similar elements in high places in the 26 counties were essential to sustaining them for the next 30 years. Will these people be part of the putative truth and reconciliation process?

 

[Sunny]

Don't like it at all. We can see from this blog how people have totally different slants on the "truth". There is no absolute truth and its pursuit can only be divisive.

For example, Purple observes that collusion by the Gardaí in vile crimes was not on the same scale as that of the RUC. That may be true but has he ever stopped to ask the following question? How was it that a handful of housing estates in West Belfast and the Bogside were able to sustain a 30 year sophisticated guerrilla campaign against all the might of the British security apparatus? Simply not possible without the collusion, support and provision of materiel from hostile elements in the establishment of a neighbouring country. Haughey, Blaney, Boland, Captain Kelly etc. made sure the Provos got off to a flying start and similar elements in high places in the 26 counties were essential to sustaining them for the next 30 years. Will these people be part of the putative truth and reconciliation process?

It's pointless. The discussion will just go around in circles. The thing with Sinn Fein and indeed the Unionists is that it is always someone elses fault. Or there is always a justification for their actions no matter how abhorrent they are. Despite all the atrocities committed during the troubles that disgust me, there are two events that will always make it impossible for me to vote Sinn Fein. The first one was our esteemed TD Martin Ferris meeting the killers of Jerry McCabe when they were released from prison and the second was the murder of Robert McCarthy and subsequent cover up. These were not carried out in the middle of a civil rights war.

The comments of Gerry Adams this week are just further proof that Sinn Fein are morally bankrupt.

 

[Betsy Og]

Folks - my understanding of this Truth & Reconciliation thing will be that combatants will essentially just give a detailed account of what they did (i.e. took him in the van for 3 miles to such a place, said his prayers, shot twice in the head and left him by the roadside - that type of account). Maybe express remorse or not, maybe give some justification but probably nothing beyond that they were carrying out orders - and that is it.

Basically a truth dump, no scorekeeping, no judgement, no whataboutery, no formal conclusions, no reports etc. So is that essential to healing for either familiies & the community as a whole, or contrary to it??

Maybe the nearest thing to it that I can think of is the release of classifed files after 50 years or whatever - interesting, informative, but not generating any official consequences.

 

[Conan]

The proposed Truth & Reconciliation is just another part of Sinn Fein's "peace process" industry. Judge Smithwick did not believe that the IRA witnesses were truthful in their evidence to him so why would they suddenly change in a T & R process? As we know Grizzly would not know the "truth" if it shot him in the head.
Listening to Grizzly and Padraig Mac Lochliann trying to put the blame om the two RUC officers I wondered if they have the same view in relation to the murder of Garda Gerry McCabe. Was he somehow responsible for his own death? Mac Lochlainn spoke about the "war" but when did the IRA declare war on the people of the Republic?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

the proposed truth & reconciliation is just another part of sinn fein's "peace process" industry. Judge smithwick did not believe that the ira witnesses were truthful in their evidence to him so why would they suddenly change in a t & r process? As we know grizzly would not know the "truth" if it shot him in the head.
Listening to grizzly and padraig mac lochliann trying to put the blame om the two ruc officers i wondered if they have the same view in relation to the murder of garda gerry mccabe. Was he somehow responsible for his own death? Mac lochlainn spoke about the "war" but when did the ira declare war on the people of the republic?

++1

 

[Latrade]

Don't like it at all. We can see from this blog how people have totally different slants on the "truth". There is no absolute truth and its pursuit can only be divisive.

Absolutely, each side has their own version of the truth and their own version of justification. However, the T&R process (or idea) is more about the latter notion in the title than the former.

It's divisive enough as it is and it's escalating again. Each side has their martyrs, each side has their victims, each side has been assisted by some official collusion.

For a while it seemed to just be a matter of time where we could wait and let the memories fade and hope that new generations would move on from the divisions of the past and see things, perhaps, through the lens of history rather than fresh wounds. But that didn't happen, without some form of T&R process, sides have perpetuated their individual attrocity, the one reason they have to be ready for revenge and to keep the bitterness going.

A T&R process won't help everyone, but it will help some. Once again the vocal minority helps split neighbours and helps hatred to grow. Why not give the majority a go at this? The majority who just want peace and if that peace comes at learning some truths about just how deep both governments were involved in the troubles so that we can draw a line under it, then let's at least give that one a chance, because at the moment we're sliding back to bad times.

Of course, for the vocal minority, for who hatred and bitterness has practically been forced into their genes, no process will change their minds. They'll cherry pick the bits of any investigation or tribunal that suits them and their agenda and as long as they can maintain power by encouraging hatred around them, they'll gladly do so and by whatever means.

Having said that, Gerry is an idiot and a coward. He's either too stupid or too scared to just call murder murder without measuring his words so as not to offend his extreme members. It shows just how far SF will have to go if they really want to be taken seriously as a party. For all the generalisations about people here and how particular religions give you a predetermined sympathy, at least look to the fact that the vast, vast majority of people have no intention of putting SF into power.

SF should be riding high in the polls, Labour dropped dramatically and the ground was there to pick up votes from the left. Except they can't see beyond the fact that SF have blood on their hands within their current administration (that and absurd economic policies).

Anyway, without a T&R process, things will stay exactly as they are. People will hate and they'll insert their own attrocity in to justify it. With a T&R process, maybe it helps the majority to work towards peace, maybe it just helps a few to change their views to the better. Who knows, and we won't know until we try. We do know the current way isn't working though.

 

[Purple]

Don't like it at all. We can see from this blog how people have totally different slants on the "truth". There is no absolute truth and its pursuit can only be divisive.

For example, Purple observes that collusion by the Gardaí in vile crimes was not on the same scale as that of the RUC. That may be true but has he ever stopped to ask the following question? How was it that a handful of housing estates in West Belfast and the Bogside were able to sustain a 30 year sophisticated guerrilla campaign against all the might of the British security apparatus? Simply not possible without the collusion, support and provision of materiel from hostile elements in the establishment of a neighbouring country. Haughey, Blaney, Boland, Captain Kelly etc. made sure the Provos got off to a flying start and similar elements in high places in the 26 counties were essential to sustaining them for the next 30 years. Will these people be part of the putative truth and reconciliation process?

I'm not a fan of the T&R idea. I do think that the IRA was supported and run from more than "handful of housing estates in West Belfast and the Bogside", it had considerable support from a minority all over this country.

I don't want to go off on a tangent here but I am also firmly of the view that the whole government were aware of the arms procurement by Captain Kelly and that Haughey etc were hung out to dry for political reasons when it went wrong. It was a different time and a different world. The bigoted apartheid type government in Northern Ireland and the support of that government by the UK government meant that whole sections of the Nationalist/Catholic population were terrorised by militant groups with the active support of the state. If I lived there at the time I'd have supported what the Irish government did.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

...whole sections of the Nationalist/Catholic population were terrorised by militant groups with the active support of the state...

We are indeed in danger of going off tangent here. You seem like a reasonable person but that is such a distortion of what was happening I feel I have to correct it.

After weeks of hooligans from West Belfast nightly engaging in an orgy of burning, looting and rioting in the city centre it got out of hand and elements of the RUC lost control and were briefly backed up by the Protestant mobs. Believe me if the same thing was happening from the far more disadvantaged areas of West Dublin the reaction of our own security forces would have been far more firm and decisive, more Egypt style than Belfast style.

As it happened the British Army moved in quickly to impose some sort of order and Catholics were mighty glad for their intervention. By the time Charlie and his mates were arming the Provos it had nothing to do with protecting Catholics (total myth that Provos protected Catholic communities anyway). It was a mixture of wanting to vent their own bigotry and hatred against the unionists and also promoting their ultimate aim of a united Ireland, which they saw as possibly flowing from undermining completely the Northern State.

Please, please no T&R. I just couldn't stomach the cringe making spectacle described by Betsy.