Is there a future for Fianna Fail?

[horusd]

A headline in today's Sindo show FF at 10% and there were rumours of Eamon O'Cuiv starting a new party on the basis that FF are history. The quality of leadership under Martin seems dubious and he is tainted by past membership of historically probably the worst gov't ever.

His talk of returning to core FF principles rings very hollow indeed as, apart from populism and winning elections, I don't know what he's talking about as core FF values. There are also no obvious leaders in waiting to take FF out of the mire and reinvent it. Yet against all this, the ability of the electorate to to forgive and forget is monumental. Can FF recover or is it time to say "Adios" and for a new centerist party to arise?

 

[RMCF]

Hopefully not.

 

[tiger]

Hard to see where they go from here, the presidential campaign has brought out alot of problems;
1) the brand is toxic, e.g. Sean Gallagher's attempts to distance himself in interviews.
2) there appears to be no leadership or discipline within the party.
3) talks of division I would guess are real, but would kill the party. I can't see O'Cuiv leading a "comley maidens at the cross roads" (or what ever the core FF values are) party to becoming a national force.

No one has gone to jail for anything that lead to the current economic crisis, but if the PDs, FF & the greens are erased, it will be a lesson for future politicians.

 

[micmclo]

They had the most successful and widespread cumann system of any party.
Fair enough they were the largest party but FF were always at organizing these while others like Labour have little or no presence in many areas of Ireland.

Two years ago I'd have said maybe they'd recover and young people would move up and the current leadership would all go.
But it didn't realy happen at all and in the election they were not noted for putting forward more new candidates then any other party

They'll be back
And the next leader is someone few of us have even heard about yet

People will forget and even after the next budget people will start blasting the government.

Jack Lynch removed local rates, Fine Gael introduce property tax. There's a headline for a poster and press release right there to appeal to the masses

(or what ever the core FF values are)

They have none, they sway like the grass in the wind.
Whatever is popular on the day they'll support

 

[cork]

Given the amount of flip flops that FG/Labour are doing FF will be back.

Most of the FG/Labour opposition to FF was opportunist.

Labours way or Franfurts Way?
Not a cent more to the banks?
No Water changes without metering?
Cutting TDs by 20?

The amount of broken promises by FG/Lab make it obvious FF will be back.

 

[tiger]

...
The amount of broken promises by FG/Lab make it obvious FF will be back.

What's obvious is that we're no longer in charge of our own affairs, the IMF & ECB hold the purse strings.

 

[RMCF]

Given the amount of flip flops that FG/Labour are doing FF will be back.

Most of the FG/Labour opposition to FF was opportunist.

Labours way or Franfurts Way?
Not a cent more to the banks?
No Water changes without metering?
Cutting TDs by 20?

The amount of broken promises by FG/Lab make it obvious FF will be back.

Can't keep the promises as FF messed up the country to such an extent!!!

 

[Shawady]

FF have made a mess of the presidential campaign. Martins' position has been seriously undermined.
I read one article yesterday where a FF TD reckons the party should back David Norris just to scupper Martin McGuiness chances.
Is this what it has come to for FF?

 

[horusd]

Watched Ursula Halligan's TV3 documentary last night. The level of anger in FF particularly against those that jumped ship with fat pensions , Dempsey, Ahern etc was striking. As was the the self-serving tripe that came out of Bertie Ahern's "analysis". And the similar tripe that came from O'Donoghue. who described himself as a "simple man" not an extravagant one. Is this simply dillusion or something worse like entitlement? It's hard to tell. A combination of the likes of Ahern, Dempsey, O'Donoghue and Bertie, never mind Haughey were the undoing of FF in my view.

I'm not a fan of FF, but there are and were some good people in the party. And maybe some very naive one's perhaps like Mary Hanafin, who I actually couldn't help feeling sorry for. Willie O'Dea also came across well. In fairness, he fought the fight and didn't hang up his boots, and you have to admire his bottle, even if that's all you can say for him.

 

[micmclo]

Surely there must be a few bright sparks in there somewhere

Who is the next Lemass?
I guess we'll find out in a few years now that a lot of the old guard have retired on their fat pensions

 

[Complainer]

They are in serious danger of going the way of the PDs. They've lost critical mass. They never had any ideology (except possibly on NI). The only thing they had to offer their supports was the benefits and trappings of power, with nice tax schemes etc. Now that they've lost power, they have nothing to offer, and their supporters are deserting them in droves.

 

[Firefly]

They are in serious danger of going the way of the PDs. They've lost critical mass. They never had any ideology (except possibly on NI). The only thing they had to offer their supports was the benefits and trappings of power, with nice tax schemes etc. Now that they've lost power, they have nothing to offer, and their supporters are deserting them in droves.

Not sure that they should be compared with the PDs. Afterall, wasn't it Bertie Ahern who declared himself 'one of the last socialists left in Irish politics'? Given the large increases in social welfare & old age pensions in the past decade coupled with the large expansion of public sector workers and rates of pay for same it's easy to see why he said this.

 

[Sunny]

They won't go the way of the PD's. They simply need to time to rebuild and rebrand. 10 years ago FG won 31 seats and had 22.5% of the vote. In 2011, despite everything that happened, FF won 20 seats and 17.5% of the vote. Big recovery job though!

 

[StevieC]

Fianna Fáil is a National Movement. Its aims are:-
(i) To secure in peace and agreement the unity of Ireland and its people.
(ii) To develop a distinctive national life in accordance with the diverse traditions and ideals of the Irish people as part of a broader European culture, and to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people.
(iii) To guarantee religious and civil liberty, and equal rights, equal treatment and equal opportunities for all the people of Ireland.
(iv) To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland, so as to provide the maximum sustainable employment, based on fostering a spirit of enterprise and self-reliance and on social partnership.
(v) To protect the natural environment and heritage of Ireland and to ensure a balance between town and country and between the regions, and to maintain as many families as practicable on the land.
(vi) To promote the family, and a wider sense of social responsibility, and to uphold the rule of law in the interest of the welfare and safety of the public.
(vii) To maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State, as a full member of the European Union and the United Nations, contributing to peace, disarmament and development on the basis of Ireland’s independent foreign policy tradition.
(viii) To reform the laws and institutions of State, to make them efficient, humane, caring and responsive to the needs of the citizen.


These are the ideals of Fianna Fáil. FF may not have lived up to these ideals in recent times but it doesnt make them any less relevant or worth striving for.

With all the media spin against FF, its easy to forget the following;

- Ireland has one of the best living standards in the world.
- Ireland until recently was praised as having one of the best educational standards in the world (compare university prices here to other countries and you will see that equality of opportunity is much higher here)
- Ireland is a relatively peaceful country, even more so since the good friday agreement (in which FF played an integral part).
- Ireland has one of the most generous social welfare systems in the world.

FF has helped shape this country into something we can be proud of even in our current difficulties.

Its all very well to knock FF for making mistakes but as a party they have done more for improve this country that any other party. No other party comes close to the impact that FF has had on our society and there were good reasons why the people of Ireland chose to re-elect FF so many times.

If FF can get back to its core ideals like Eamonn O'Cuiv states and clears out the carpetbaggers only in it for themselves, then FF could be a force for good in this country again.

 

[Mpsox]

I grew up in a FF household. We were small farmers and back then, FF were considered the party of the small farmer and the rural working man/family. FG were the party of "the big houses" or, as my father used to put it, the crowd who went hunting with horses, whereas the small farmer went hunting with just a dog. There was a strong nationalistic bent to the party, but then, the Civil War was still far more relevant in the 60s and 70s as people still recalled who was on what side and what happened in the locale.

None of that applied to FF in the celtic tiger years, it's as if things got reversed and FF became the party of "the big men", the men with money, the chancers and charlatens. Problem the party now has is that it will become impossible for it to disasociate itself from that era for many a long day

Martin was wrong not to run a candidate. With 6 or 7 in the field, and the vote split, 15% of the vote could still have put them in with a shout. Now the remaining core FF voters are going to have to vote for someone else and that is not a good habit to get your core vote into.

Key thing for FF is the next council elections, they need a whole raft of new candidates out there, with no association with the old days. Problem they will have is getting them. FG/Lab will lose popularity with the next budget, no matter what spin they put on it. Danger for FF and for Labour is that desperate people will vote for SF on the basis they have nothing else to loose

 

[Shawady]

Martin was wrong not to run a candidate. With 6 or 7 in the field, and the vote split, 15% of the vote could still have put them in with a shout. Now the remaining core FF voters are going to have to vote for someone else and that is not a good habit to get your core vote into.

I actually think Brian Crowley could have polled well.
Now they are giving SF a free run to have a pop at the Lab and FG candidates over the next 6 weeks in the run-up to the next budget.
Hard to see SF get the presidency but the campaign will certainly raise their profile as an opposition party.

 

[Complainer]

FNo other party comes close to the impact that FF has had on our society

While I disagree with just about everything else in your post, we can certainly agree on this point. No other party has sold out our sovreignty to international moneylenders. That's all down to FF. I'm sure my children will be very interested to know the history as they continue to pay off the FF debts.

 

[Calico]

Yes, but not as FF. They would have to call themselves something else. I have a few suggestions....

 

[Firefly]

While I disagree with just about everything else in your post, we can certainly agree on this point. No other party has sold out our sovreignty to international moneylenders. That's all down to FF. I'm sure my children will be very interested to know the history as they continue to pay off the FF debts.

Would that be for bailing out the banks (62.9BN according to http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=151115) or for the 18bn a year we are borrowing to balance the books? (I make it approx 54BN since Sept 2008)

 

[StevieC]

While I disagree with just about everything else in your post, we can certainly agree on this point. No other party has sold out our sovreignty to international moneylenders. That's all down to FF. I'm sure my children will be very interested to know the history as they continue to pay off the FF debts.

1) FF didnt bankrupt the country. The bankers did. FF made mistakes not having strong enough regulation but they didnt force the banks to go on a lending frenzy. They also didnt have control of all the county councils (FG did) that gave out planning permission wholesale for enough houses to meet demand for the next 50 years, or for planning for houses in Ballygobackwards that no one wanted to buy.

2) Its not all down to FF. Aside from the Bankers, the Central Bank/Financial Regulator fell asleep at the wheel. Mr Neary goes on Six One News saying we have the best capiltalised banks in Europe when obviously we didnt.

3) Its not FF debts. Its the nations. The fact is the banks borrowed all this money and irresponsibly lent it to people who couldnt pay it back. The fact is that we borrow money every year to pay for our health/social welfare/education system. If we didnt agree to honour these debts then Europe wouldnt have lent us the money to keep the country's lights on. The choices were agree to IMF/ECB terms or immediately balance our budget by sacking 1/3 of our public service and letting our banks go bust impoverishing most of the country and I dont mean just the rich, I mean ordinary people too.

We would all love it if it was as simple to give a two fingered salute to Europe but the alternative was scarier if you look at the real consequences of that action.

Dont be fooled by the media, scratch the surface of our problems and you will see that while FF certainly made mistakes and were too long in government, they are not the sole cause of all our woes.