Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan

[Guest105]

Militants in Afganistan hanged an 8 year old boy because his father wouldn'y provide them with a police car to use in an attack.

Horrendous act of pure evil, how can they live with themselves, one day when they are old they will sit back in their chairs and the full horrors of what they did will weigh heavy on their souls.

Suffer the little children................

 

[onq]

That's dreadful news from Afghanistan. Just for context, lethal injection is no walk in the park either.

I'm not sure what your point is Complainer.

No taking of another's life is easy, but at least the Americans have the fig leaf of due process before the murder someone by lethal injection.

Mind you, the disproportional numbers of young black males doing time on death row suggests there is someone wrong with either the society, the legal system or American society as a whole.

ONQ.

 

[Purple]

I agree that lethal injection is a barbaric form of execution and for the record I am opposed to the death penalty but equating that with hanging an 8 year old boy because his father wouldn't give a car to militants/terrorists/fighters is just plain stupid. It's the sort of juvenile nonsense I'd expect from a school kid. Equating the two shows a childish anti-Americanism that devoid of logic or reason.

 

[Purple]

Mind you, the disproportional numbers of young black males doing time on death row suggests there is someone wrong with either the society, the legal system or American society as a whole.

ONQ.

Yes, just as most of our prison population being from a few post codes in Dublin says the same thing about us. You'll probably find the same holds true for every country in the world and has done since anyone took heed of such things.

 

[horusd]

Purple I'm not sure who's equating the two (lethal injection/boy-hanging) ? The Taliban are at best thugs, and the people who did this are despicable. So are people who would do likewise in the US. You said that brutality was inherent in the culture of Afghanistan, and others, me included, said it was pretty inherent in American culture, but on a far greater scale.

It's also arguable that as America holds itself up as a paragon of enlightened civilisation, and feels obliged to lecture others on civilised values, that it itself has set a far higher standard for itself. A standard it fails to meet in many respects. Particularly evident in the death penalty, the occasional execution of minors, the manner of executions, the often brutal effects of a violent and aggressive foreign policy etc.

If we were to look at the world objectively, it would be Scandinavian & European countries generally, which have the higher moral ground. The fact that America places legal/quasi-legal status on the likes of Gitmo, rendition, Vietnam, Iraq etc should be a greater concern than the illegal and heinous actions of a few extremists.

 

[Purple]

If we were to look at the world objectively, it would be Scandinavian & European countries generally, which have the higher moral ground. The fact that America places legal/quasi-legal status on the likes of Gitmo, rendition, Vietnam, Iraq etc should be a greater concern than the illegal and heinous actions of a few extremists.

I completely disagree. When famine starts the biggest donor is nearly always the USA. When Muslims were being murdered in Europe it was the Americans who went in first (Bosnia). When AIDS ravages sub-Saharan Africa it is the Americans who spend billions helping. America is as powerful as any empire in history and in that position it abuses its power less than anyone. The murder of children in Afghanistan is not just the action of “a few extremists” it is part of the commonly used arsenal. Children are fair game in a land of drug dealers, smugglers and fanatics.
I disagree with the invasion of Afghanistan as it was military folly and politically naive. The idea that it was peaceful before the “Coalition” force invaded is, or course, nonsense, as is the idea that it can be a functioning democracy any time in the next 50 years.

So what about us? We have never defended our freedom. We hide behind others and let their young men die to keep us free. We did it before and we'll do it again and we'll wag our fingers at them and criticise the manner in which they conduct themselves while they die for us. We are without virtue living in the sanitised bubble that is Western Europe, clueless about the violence that is common in much of the rest of the world. What damns us most is that we forget that we are living in that bubble, who put it there and who keeps it there.
There are many European countries that are more virtuous than us and some that are more virtuous than America but we sure as heck aint one of them.

What European countries that can project their power do so in a more virtuous way than the USA? France? No way. Britain? Possibly. Who else is there? Russia maybe, if you count them as European but they are a few leagues below the USA. What Scandinavian countries are virtuous? Norway? Possibly but I don’t know much about them.
Sweden? Nope; when they were powerful they were aggressive empire builders and domestically they practiced eugenics up to the 1970's.
Finland? Hard to say; they weren't above siding with the Germans during the Second World War when it suited them. I don’t know much more about them.
Denmark? I don’t know enough about it to comment.

 

[horusd]

America has made a measly donation to the current African famine. But, I take the point they often are the biggest donors. I accept America saved Bosnia, and I accept that Europe doesn't do nearly enough to fund it's own defence. Although I might think that in some ways, this suits the Yanks as they have no competition in the field. Irish neutrality is also a cop-out, and one that often ill-serves us.

But, European soft power is underestimated. The attraction of EU membership has pretty much cleaned up (or at least vastly improved) the Balkans and even Turkey. And European aid to Palestine has saved those people from an even more desperate situation. One could also say that the very presence of a fairly democratic EU bulwark engendered the "arab spring". The African Union is also an attempt to mirror the success of the EU, albeit a poor imitation. None of this is done with military force. The EU doesn't "do" regime change. Usually it acknowledges the limits of militarism. A point often lost on America.

When you say "Children are fair game in a land of drug dealers, smugglers and fanatics" you demonise an entire country. I think this is neither true nor particularly fair. It's like saying the Irish can be judged by the standards of the IRA and Father Ted. The drugs of course are sold to the West. Fanaticism arises in all places consequent to extreme circumstances, Germany is a case in point, but there are lots of other examples.

 

[Purple]

America has made a measly donation to the current African famine. But, I take the point they often are the biggest donors. I accept America saved Bosnia, and I accept that Europe doesn't do nearly enough to fund it's own defence. Although I might think that in some ways, this suits the Yanks as they have no competition in the field. Irish neutrality is also a cop-out, and one that often ill-serves us.

Read the comments coming out of the military and politicians in the USA; they are constantly angry that it has to spend its tax dollars defending Europe. Some are now calling for the USA to pull its ICBM’s out of Europe altogether.

But, European soft power is underestimated. The attraction of EU membership has pretty much cleaned up (or at least vastly improved) the Balkans and even Turkey.

The Americans pump billions into Turkey every year, their industry employs tens of thousands of people there (every Ford Transit van in the world is made in Turkey). They also exert huge political pressure on Turkey to reform and hold back their radical elements. They train and arm their military which is the main bulwark against internal and external extremism. The EU’s influence in Turkey is Lilliputian by comparison.
The Americans are also heavily involved in the Balkans, from counterbalancing the Russian influence to providing all sorts of aid.
In general American soft power is what allows it to have military bases all over the world. It is their productions that dominate popular TV and cinema and it’s their music that’s played all over the world. I think we’d both agree that they achieve more through the power of their example than the example of their power.

And European aid to Palestine has saved those people from an even more desperate situation.

OK, we fundamentally disagree on Palestine so there’s little point in going anywhere with that.

One could also say that the very presence of a fairly democratic EU bulwark engendered the "arab spring".

That couldn’t be further from the truth. It was the Americans that forced Bahrain to modernise and institute democratic reforms and it was the Americans that stopped Saudi Arabia from crushing those reforms (Bahrain only exists on the whim of the Saudi’s). It is America that keeps Jordan and Egypt on side (with some help from the French).

The African Union is also an attempt to mirror the success of the EU, albeit a poor imitation.

The stated aims of the AU are;
• to accelerate the political and socio-economic integration of the continent;
• to promote and defend African common positions on issues of interest to the continent and its peoples;
• to achieve peace and security in Africa; and
• to promote democratic institutions, good governance and human rights.
This is a body based in Ethiopia! Lol
They’ve done some good work but I don’t see how the EU has had much to do with their success.

None of this is done with military force. The EU doesn't "do" regime change. Usually it acknowledges the limits of militarism. A point often lost on America.

When you say "Children are fair game in a land of drug dealers, smugglers and fanatics" you demonise an entire country. I think this is neither true nor particularly fair. It's like saying the Irish can be judged by the standards of the IRA and Father Ted. The drugs of course are sold to the West. Fanaticism arises in all places consequent to extreme circumstances, Germany is a case in point, but there are lots of other examples.

There’s no comparison between a Western state and Afghanistan. It simply isn’t a country, it is a tribal area. It has no functioning government other than the one imposed on them and it will only last as long as America underwrites it. It is rife with corruption; those who try to stand up to Afghani corruption on either side end up dead. The tribes fight with the Coalition, trade with the Taliban (and vice versa) and sell their drugs to the same guys they’ve been selling them to for decades. Loyalty is only to clan or tribe, not country. Sure there are some that are Afghani first, well educated and want an enlightened and peaceful future but they aren’t the guys with the guns and RPG’s and they certainly don’t have enough popular support to stand on their own. It would be great if that wasn't the case but it is.
Pretending otherwise cost the Russians thousands of lives, cost the British hundreds and is now costing the Coalition hundreds and will cost them thousands before it’s over. It is a violent place where as often as not life is cheap.

 

[Complainer]

I'm not sure what your point is Complainer.

No taking of another's life is easy, but at least the Americans have the fig leaf of due process before the murder someone by lethal injection.

You're right - they do have a form of 'due process' in the US, though there are many inequalities involved in access to that process. I'm not trying to compare the US and Afghanistan, which are of course, completely different entities. It is worth remembering the role of the US in fuelling and funding the Taliban in their early days, when they were the opposition to the Russian invaders, e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/26/news/26iht-stinger_ed3_.html

Mind you, the disproportional numbers of young black males doing time on death row suggests there is someone wrong with either the society, the legal system or American society as a whole.

Young black males and young hispanic males are over-represented on death row. In the past, many young men with intellectual disabilities were executed, thought this has improved recently. You've got the point.

 

[horusd]

See below.

Read the comments coming out of the military and politicians in the USA; they are constantly angry that it has to spend its tax dollars defending Europe. Some are now calling for the USA to pull its ICBM’s out of Europe altogether.

I suspect American moaning about defending Europe arises from it's current economic woes. It appointed itself global policeman because it suits itself to be that, would probably strike down any attempt to replace it,but can't help moaning nonetheless. Europe's military weakness, and Britain's status as a lap-dog, suits the yanks. But maybe that will change.


The Americans pump billions into Turkey every year, their industry employs tens of thousands of people there (every Ford Transit van in the world is made in Turkey). They also exert huge political pressure on Turkey to reform and hold back their radical elements. They train and arm their military which is the main bulwark against internal and external extremism. The EU’s influence in Turkey is Lilliputian by comparison.

Yet Turkey wants to join the EU and in order to even be considered, it has had to voluntarily engage in massive reform. America's Turkish involvement has probably more to do with encircling the ME and Russia. It is a function of American self-interest whereas Turkey's desire to join the EU is a function of it's own desires.

The Americans are also heavily involved in the Balkans, from counterbalancing the Russian influence to providing all sorts of aid.
In general American soft power is what allows it to have military bases all over the world. It is their productions that dominate popular TV and cinema and it’s their music that’s played all over the world. I think we’d both agree that they achieve more through the power of their example than the example of their power.

Culturally America's dominance has been a mixed blessing. But Amercia had serious street cred as a force for good. A cred that has been devastated by it's foreign policy.

That couldn’t be further from the truth. It was the Americans that forced Bahrain to modernise and institute democratic reforms and it was the Americans that stopped Saudi Arabia from crushing those reforms (Bahrain only exists on the whim of the Saudi’s). It is America that keeps Jordan and Egypt on side (with some help from the French).

This would be the same America that has managed to shore-up these very same dictators, like Mubarak? The same America that, by it's unequivocal support for Israel, has managed to feed extremism and fanaticism? The same America that has left the Saudi royals to feed off it's own people anf their resources so that they can drive gas-guzzlers cheaply?

The stated aims of the AU are;
• to accelerate the political and socio-economic integration of the continent;
• to promote and defend African common positions on issues of interest to the continent and its peoples;
• to achieve peace and security in Africa; and
• to promote democratic institutions, good governance and human rights.
This is a body based in Ethiopia! Lol
They’ve done some good work but I don’t see how the EU has had much to do with their success.

Africa's attempts to emulate the EU demonstrate the EU's soft power.


There’s no comparison between a Western state and Afghanistan. It simply isn’t a country, it is a tribal area. ...

The British were tribes until they weren't. So were the French and the Germans. Italy only became a state in the 18th century. The Americans didn't exist at all a few hundred years ago. But all forged nations despite this. America is unique in many respects. It sees itself as "the city upon a hill" and believes in it's "manifest destiny." This self-belief is occasionally inspiring, but often an illusion and dangerous wishful thinking for which Americans and many others pay the price.

America names it's wars and strategies well. "Operation Iraqi Freedom", The War on Terror", "shock and awe", "Desert Storm". But where have any of these succeeded beyond a brief and fleeting success? The cost it pays for these dillusions are manifold. Dead and maimed US soldiers and almost universal disgust and dismay at it's folly. Economic ruin now staring it in the face.
.

 

[RMCF]

Horrendous act of pure evil, how can they live with themselves, one day when they are old they will sit back in their chairs and the full horrors of what they did will weigh heavy on their souls.

Suffer the little children................

A truly terrible act .... I'm sure there are plenty of things like this that we never hear about.

Don't they reckon hundreds of thousands of children died in Iraq due to Western sanctions after the Gulf War? That too was diabolical, but not widely reported.

As for 'suffer the little children', we know all about that in this country, and I wish more people would have the same hate for the perpetrators here as they do for the Taliban ones in this story.

 

[onq]

You're right - they do have a form of 'due process' in the US, though there are many inequalities involved in access to that process. I'm not trying to compare the US and Afghanistan, which are of course, completely different entities. It is worth remembering the role of the US in fuelling and funding the Taliban in their early days, when they were the opposition to the Russian invaders, e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/26/news/26iht-stinger_ed3_.html


Young black males and young hispanic males are over-represented on death row. In the past, many young men with intellectual disabilities were executed, thought this has improved recently. You've got the point.

(nods)

I agree.

I've been posting about American involvement in atrocities both at home and abroad for 10 years, long before coming to AAM.

Another poster has just drawn attention to the supposed contradiciton between

(i) Cultural America's "force for good" public image, espousing law and democracy, and
(ii) Corporate/Military America's actions, which range from economic coercion disguised as support eg Turkey, to covert support and arming of dictators eg Noreiga et al, to outright aggressive war such as invasions and remote-controlled killing and bombing.

We are not immune from this in Ireland.
When confronted over the Shannon rendition flights, Ahearn said that the Americans had made it clear it was in Ireland's economic interest to support them - or else!
Now we are in the hole economically and we have lost our moral authority to a hatchet wielding member of a minority pressure group - we gained nothing by being spineless.

American culture has given them huge propaganda dominance over what some may seem as "lesser" cultures, with someone going so far to say "America makes the best dreams."
For many this is true, and the power of dreams, aka peoples desires, is what fuels Americas popularity - the benign victor, the wise law-giver, and most interesting storyteller and film-maker.

However these aspirational and literal achievements of excellence are used by the few to divide and dominate the many and as fig leaves to paper over the atrocities perpetrated by successive governments.
Its a very unperceptive person who cannot see that there are two Americas - the "haves" and the "have-nots", the "powerful" and the "disenfranchised" and the gap is widening.

ONQ.

 

[onq]

Yes, just as most of our prison population being from a few post codes in Dublin says the same thing about us. You'll probably find the same holds true for every country in the world and has done since anyone took heed of such things.

The similarities are crystal clear Purple, you just have to take off your stars-and-striped shades to see them .

I'm as well aware of the majority populations's structural need for sub-groups as I am for their need for external enemies, Purple.
Police and the army are needed to maintain public order, which is probably one reason why there are a host of concentration camps in the United States.
Except that when you look at the way power is structured in any society, there are a minority of people manipulating the fears of a majority to divide and dominate them.

The similarities between the unlawful killing of an Afghani child in Afghanistan and the execution of disproportionate numbers of African-American and Hispanic males in America are fivefold:

(i) people are killed
(ii) the dead are non-white
(iii) the morality of taking a life is questionable in both cases
(iv) the situation in both American and Afghani society has been shaped by the intervention of American laws, culture and military forces.
(v) the growth of drug production in Afghanistan has been promoted, protected and financed by the United States of America and most violent crime in America - where the drugs are sold - is drug-related.
​

One thing I will point out is the phenomenon of camps for incarcerating people

FEMA camps
German WWII camps during WWII
British camps during the Boer War in Africa
[broken link removed]
Afghan Detention Centres
Northern Ireland Internment Camps

They all have one common denominator are used by the state to suppress sub-groups.

Where these are used the population is usually subject to intimidation, repression, removal of franchise and incarceration without due process.
Where such repressive measures are used some elements of the population sooner or later engage in atrocities, which enrage the majority.
Where this doesn't occur enough to manipulate public opinion false flag operations or provocation occurs.

So I'm of two minds as to whether the hanging of the child was by an atypical Muslim group or a false flag operation like the [broken link removed] or other operations.

I'm betting that no Muslim was involved.

ONQ.

 

[Purple]

I suspect American moaning about defending Europe arises from it's current economic woes. It appointed itself global policeman because it suits itself to be that, would probably strike down any attempt to replace it,but can't help moaning nonetheless. Europe's military weakness, and Britain's status as a lap-dog, suits the yanks. But maybe that will change.

America is an economic empire and has been since it was founded. It is far less agressive now than it was in the past. The high watermark of it's agression was during the Spanish American war in the Phillipines.

Yet Turkey wants to join the EU and in order to even be considered, it has had to voluntarily engage in massive reform. America's Turkish involvement has probably more to do with encircling the ME and Russia. It is a function of American self-interest whereas Turkey's desire to join the EU is a function of it's own desires.

Turkey wants to join the EU because it's in Turkey’s economic and political interests to do so. America also wants Turkey in the EU and has lobbied heavily for that to happen. Many Europeans don't want Turkey in the EU as they don't want a land border with Syria and Iran (I'm one of them).

Culturally America's dominance has been a mixed blessing. But Amercia had serious street cred as a force for good. A cred that has been devastated by it's foreign policy.

Agreed.

This would be the same America that has managed to shore-up these very same dictators, like Mubarak? The same America that, by it's unequivocal support for Israel, has managed to feed extremism and fanaticism? The same America that has left the Saudi royals to feed off it's own people anf their resources so that they can drive gas-guzzlers cheaply?

The English speaking world supported Mubarak. We directly benefit from US policy in the Middle East. How do you think people would react paying 3 times as much as they do for petrol (and anything made from plastic)? The motion that American support of Israel causes extremism or fanaticism is rubbish; American support for the only democracy in the Middle East is necessary because of extremism.

The British were tribes until they weren't. So were the French and the Germans. Italy only became a state in the 18th century. The Americans didn't exist at all a few hundred years ago. But all forged nations despite this. America is unique in many respects. It sees itself as "the city upon a hill" and believes in it's "manifest destiny." This self-belief is occasionally inspiring, but often an illusion and dangerous wishful thinking for which Americans and many others pay the price.

Many great political advances happened by accident; Parliamentary democracy was given to us by a religious fanatic, Modern (American) democracy was given to us by a bunch of elitist freemasons led by a man who would have fought against the revolution if his application to join Horse Guard had been successful.
It took Europe 400 years of almost continuous warfare to get itself sorted. Thinking that others can make the same journey in a few decades is folly. Britain had its official civil war plus a few more that amounted to the same thing. France had loads of them including a failed revolution when they attacked a prison that was already earmarked for demolition, killed their king and his wife and children and unleashed the Terror. The whole thing ended with a military dictatorship which attacked many of its neighbours, killing tens of thousands of innocent people in the process.
Ireland was tribal ‘till it was invaded (for what, the fourth time?) and its entire civil and military infrastructure was dismantled. This cost us a large proportion of our population. Both sides in this debate, conservative/rightwing and liberal/leftwing forget the blood that was lost in getting us here. When reminded one side resorts to hubris and speeches about spreading democracy and the other talks about us all being the same, missing the point completely that it is the fact that we are all the same that means the development to a democratic nation state can’t happen overnight.

 

[Purple]

The similarities are crystal clear Purple, you just have to take off your stars-and-striped shades to see them .

I'm as well aware of the majority populations's structural need for sub-groups as I am for their need for external enemies, Purple.
Police and the army are needed to maintain public order, which is probably one reason why there are a host of concentration camps in the United States.
Except that when you look at the way power is structured in any society, there are a minority of people manipulating the fears of a majority to divide and dominate them.

The similarities between the unlawful killing of an Afghani child in Afghanistan and the execution of disproportionate numbers of African-American and Hispanic males in America are fivefold:

(i) people are killed
(ii) the dead are non-white
(iii) the morality of taking a life is questionable in both cases
(iv) the situation in both American and Afghani society has been shaped by the intervention of American laws, culture and military forces.
(v) the growth of drug production in Afghanistan has been promoted, protected and financed by the United States of America and most violent crime in America - where the drugs are sold - is drug-related.
​

One thing I will point out is the phenomenon of camps for incarcerating people

FEMA camps
German WWII camps during WWII
British camps during the Boer War in Africa
[broken link removed]
Afghan Detention Centres
Northern Ireland Internment Camps

They all have one common denominator are used by the state to suppress sub-groups.

Where these are used the population is usually subject to intimidation, repression, removal of franchise and incarceration without due process.
Where such repressive measures are used some elements of the population sooner or later engage in atrocities, which enrage the majority.
Where this doesn't occur enough to manipulate public opinion false flag operations or provocation occurs.

So I'm of two minds as to whether the hanging of the child was by an atypical Muslim group or a false flag operation like the [broken link removed] or other operations.

I'm betting that no Muslim was involved.

ONQ.

That’s read tinfoil hat stuff ONQ.
The Americans and British spend a fortune attaching the drug trade in Afghanistan.
American law and culture has been copies, with American help, all over the world. Some good examples are Germany, South Korea, Vietnam, Japan and, more recently, Rwanda. National laws and government require a nation. Afghanistan is not a nation, it is a geographic area.

Your comments on the suppression of sub-groups are nonsense; all countries seek to set boundaries within which citizens have to behave. It’s called the civil and criminal law.
Drug dealers are a sub-group, as are other criminals and terrorists.

The idea that the 8 year old was killed by the Americans in some sort of black-op is too stupid to be offensive.

 

[horusd]

Purple what's going to happen is you'll get the congressional medal of honour, and I'll be cooling my heels in Gitmo in an orange boiler suit (so not my colour) and a free copy of the Koran.



Anyway, might as well be strung for a sheep as a lamb.

America is an economic empire and has been since it was founded. It is far less agressive now than it was in the past. The high watermark of it's agression was during the Spanish American war in the Phillipines.

And what about the Monroe doctrine where America gave itself the right to interfere aggressively in all of the America's and indeed the entire Western Hemisphere if it's hegemony was threatened? A policy ruthlessly followed particularly in South America? That American interference was and is often covert, does not make it any less aggressive. It's policy towards Cuba presently is highly aggressive. I imagine much of south America views the US with equal amounts of fear and loathing.

Turkey wants to join the EU because it's in Turkey’s economic and political interests to do so. America also wants Turkey in the EU and has lobbied heavily for that to happen. Many Europeans don't want Turkey in the EU as they don't want a land border with Syria and Iran (I'm one of them).

I suspect America would like Turkey to join to weaken the EU. You're right Turkey wants to join for it's own reasons, and has undertaken reforms to beef up its democratic credentials. A good thing for the Turks. But they aren't a European country, so joining should not be an option.

The English speaking world supported Mubarak. We directly benefit from US policy in the Middle East. How do you think people would react paying 3 times as much as they do for petrol (and anything made from plastic)? The motion that American support of Israel causes extremism or fanaticism is rubbish; American support for the only democracy in the Middle East is necessary because of extremism.

US policy in the ME is neither benefical or enlightened, merely short-sighted.Saudi rulers depend on the extremist Wahabi religious sect to stay in power. They are committed to jihad and support the very extremist elements currently in Somalia. America's attack on Iraq has been a disaster. It will occupy it in all but name (the US "embassy" will have 16,000 staff for God's sake) .

Israel is not a proper democracy. How can it be? Only jews born anywhere in the world are automatically citizens under the law of return. It is a type of theocracy masqurading as a democracy. A jewish state for a jewish people, built in large parts on occupied land. A land grab is still going on at the moment. The only reason it can get away with it's policies is the US's unquestioning support. This deeply unfair and flawed policy encourages the very extremism that destablises the entire region. If America played an actual honest broker, it might quell much unrest, but it won't because of the infamous jewish lobby. Ironically US support for Israel has left it(Israel) in a constant state of war and conflict.

The origins of states is a relatively new phenomenon. "Antiquity knew them not" as someone famous said. But Pakistan emerged as a relatively coherent and peaceful state (internally) in the modern era. So did Bangladesh. But Pakistan has now been destablised by the American-led attacks in Afghanistan, and the spill-over. American policy has failed. Failed America, failed the West, failed the world in every respect. It's dominance is coming to an end ingloriously. It could have done so much better.

 

[Purple]

Purple what's going to happen is you'll get the congressional medal of honour, and I'll be cooling my heels in Gitmo in an orange boiler suit (so not my colour) and a free copy of the Koran.



Anyway, might as well be strung for a sheep as a lamb.



And what about the Monroe doctrine where America gave itself the right to interfere aggressively in all of the America's and indeed the entire Western Hemisphere if it's hegemony was threatened? A policy ruthlessly followed particularly in South America? That American interference was and is often covert, does not make it any less aggressive. It's policy towards Cuba presently is highly aggressive. I imagine much of south America views the US with equal amounts of fear and loathing.



I suspect America would like Turkey to join to weaken the EU. You're right Turkey wants to join for it's own reasons, and has undertaken reforms to beef up its democratic credentials. A good thing for the Turks. But they aren't a European country, so joining should not be an option.



US policy in the ME is neither benefical or enlightened, merely short-sighted.Saudi rulers depend on the extremist Wahabi religious sect to stay in power. They are committed to jihad and support the very extremist elements currently in Somalia. America's attack on Iraq has been a disaster. It will occupy it in all but name (the US "embassy" will have 16,000 staff for God's sake) .

Israel is not a proper democracy. How can it be? Only jews born anywhere in the world are automatically citizens under the law of return. It is a type of theocracy masqurading as a democracy. A jewish state for a jewish people, built in large parts on occupied land. A land grab is still going on at the moment. The only reason it can get away with it's policies is the US's unquestioning support. This deeply unfair and flawed policy encourages the very extremism that destablises the entire region. If America played an actual honest broker, it might quell much unrest, but it won't because of the infamous jewish lobby. Ironically US support for Israel has left it(Israel) in a constant state of war and conflict.

The origins of states is a relatively new phenomenon. "Antiquity knew them not" as someone famous said. But Pakistan emerged as a relatively coherent and peaceful state (internally) in the modern era. So did Bangladesh. But Pakistan has now been destablised by the American-led attacks in Afghanistan, and the spill-over. American policy has failed. Failed America, failed the West, failed the world in every respect. It's dominance is coming to an end ingloriously. It could have done so much better.

"Pakistan a relatively coherent and peaceful state". Relative to what, Somalia?
The border areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan have been a hot bed of extremism and have been rife with small tribal wars for years. We just don't hear about it (just like we don't hear about the tribal conflicts in areas of China. It's only when white people get killed or do the killing, especially Northern Europeans and Americans that we hear about it.

America doesn’t want a weak EU; it wants a strong one with the core NATO members at its heart. It also wants a European Army (which in effect we have already as all the major armies are integrated). It wants Turkey in the EU because it’s a pro-American member of NATO and acts as a bulwark against the Fundamentalist Islamic states, particularly Iran.

Israel was attacked when it was founded. Back then the Americans didn’t support them. The idea that it wouldn’t be attacked tomorrow or next week or next year if the Americans didn’t support then is ridiculous. Have you read what Iran and Syria say about them? Do you know who arms, trains and finances Hamas?
Israel is the only country in the Middle East who treats their Palestinian citizens as equals. There are 1.5 million Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel. If Jordan had the same respect for them then there would be no West Bank.

 

[horusd]

There has been no question of a collapse of Pakistan until the war in Afghanistan spilled over. Now it's entire collapse is possible. A situation brought about by the war. Indeed much of the taliban has moved to nuclear Pakistan, engendering American attacks and mission creep. America will be forced into a deal with the very same taliban as it attempts withdrawal. Vietnam again methinks. What part of this mission has been a success? Thousands of dead and maimed soldiers, horrendous costs, an already unstable region further destablised and militarised.

Turkey, which even the CIA world fact book cite as in the ME, has a population of 80 million. It's not in Europe. It's inclusion would weaken and destablise the EU which is why France will hold a referendum, as will Austria. We would be left with a border with Iran, Iraq, Syria and Georgia. How can this aid Europe in any way? America seals or attempts to seal it's own border with much more stable Mexico, but would seek to force the EU to import instability.

American financial support for Israel is around 3 billion. Has US support brought peace closer or further away? Has the US even been able to stop the illegal settlements? Had it been able to stop the illegal use of white phosphorous on the Gazans? When 3000 Gazans die compared to 300 Israeli's in Operation Lead? Has it stopped Israel from stealing passports and committing murder abroad? No. American support has allowed Israel to become more extreme, not less.

 

[Purple]

There has been no question of a collapse of Pakistan until the war in Afghanistan spilled over. Now it's entire collapse is possible. A situation brought about by the war. Indeed much of the taliban has moved to nuclear Pakistan, engendering American attacks and mission creep. America will be forced into a deal with the very same taliban as it attempts withdrawal. Vietnam again methinks. What part of this mission has been a success? Thousands of dead and maimed soldiers, horrendous costs, an already unstable region further destablised and militarised.

I’m not going to argue that American foreign policy under GW Bush was anything other than a disaster. I will argue with anyone who draws a moral equivalence between the actions of militants who hang an 8 year old boy and American (or British, French, Polish, Australian) soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan.

Turkey, which even the CIA world fact book cite as in the ME, has a population of 80 million. It's not in Europe. It's inclusion would weaken and destablise the EU which is why France will hold a referendum, as will Austria. We would be left with a border with Iran, Iraq, Syria and Georgia. How can this aid Europe in any way? America seals or attempts to seal it's own border with much more stable Mexico, but would seek to force the EU to import instability.

America lets in more emigrants every year than the EU does. The problem with Mexico is the sheer numbers involved and the drug trade. America wants Turkey in the EU for Turkey’s sake and to force the EU to engage in the Middle East in a more proactive way. At the moment all we do is make the odd limp pronouncement and engage in Woe-is-me diplomacy.

American financial support for Israel is around 3 billion. Has US support brought peace closer or further away? Has the US even been able to stop the illegal settlements? Had it been able to stop the illegal use of white phosphorous on the Gazans? When 3000 Gazans die compared to 300 Israeli's in Operation Lead? Has it stopped Israel from stealing passports and committing murder abroad? No. American support has allowed Israel to become more extreme, not less.

3 billion is small beans in the scheme of things. The US gives money to lots of countries. I don’t support all of Israel’s actions (I am against the settlements) but Hamas have killed more people in Gaza that Israel. As long as an Iranian funded terrorist organisation is in charge then Gaza has to be viewed as a hostile state and treated accordingly. Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel and there’s no trouble between them. Hamas wants to kill every Jewish man woman and child in Israel (as well as any that are gay or want women to have basic rights). They have murdered their entire political opposition and any press that have spoken out against them. I have no problem with Israeli security forces using Irish Passports to kill their leadership, just as I’d have no problem if they used them when they were killing Nazi war criminals. What does the EU do about it; very little. What does Ireland do about it; we march in support of Hamas. The sight, during Operation Lead, of the Labour party Lesbian, Gay, Bi and transgender group marching in support of an organisation that would kill each and every one of them was beyond farcical. There are few things more dangerous than a well meaning idiot.

 

[horusd]

I don't think there is a moral equivalence at all between the murder of the boy and Western occupation. And I don't think Obama is another Bush. In fact I thought his Cairo speech ...hand of friendship etc was a reasonably good and sincere one.

But Western involvement in the ME under the US is disasterous for everyone' not least the Americans. But most of all the people of the ME, including Israeli's. It has driven people into the hands of extremists. It has radicalised Islam. Iran is a perfect example. Support for the despotic Shah almost guranteed the rise of an islamic radical like Khomeni. Failure to act as an honest broker has radicalised many of the Palestinians, and driven them into Hamas' hands. It has marginalised even the moderate Israeli's who would settle a lasting peace with the Palistinians. Offers made to withdraw to the 1967 borders, and share Jerusalem, even some terrority swap are refuted by radical Israeli's. This is enabled by US support. They should be dragged to the negotiation table.

We agree Turkey is not a European country. I have no problem with a special relationship with Turkey, but it should be made clear no membership can be considered. It's inclusion in the EU would be disasterous for us directly. It will never be an acceptable outcome for Europeans, so why is it still being pushed by the Americans?

America sees itself as special and different. American "exceptionalism" is even an academic term. This view of itself, it's power and influence has done untold harm to itself. I'm not anti-American at all. It's in fact hard to see a friend like America do so much damage to itself because of it's inherent dillusions. But in the process of it's dillusions it is not only undermining itself, but the entire Western world. And meanwhile China rises inexorably.