Public Schools: What fees can I expect?

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alaskaonline

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I hope I am in the right category here if not please move to correct one.

My child is going to school next year and I am wondering what costs can I expect? I will send her to a public school.

Now where a lot of kids are going back to school in the next few weeks, maybe I am in luck to find some parents with the most up to date prices (i.e. uniform, books, other)

Thanks :)
 
A lot depends on the school themselves. Do you have to buy the uniform from a designated supplier, or can you use chain-store clothes with a badge? Does the school have a book rental scheme in place?

Voluntary contributions range from €50 a head to €300 a head approx, depending on the school.
 
based on hear' say they have a designated supplier and a book rental scheme.

i was after average numbers anyway - what parents are being charged in general these days.

when you say voluntary contributions - what does that stand for, include etc.?

thanks
 
The book rental scheme should certainly take most of the pain out of the book cost. The voluntary contributions will generally be stated as covering the cost of art materials, photocopying, etc. In reality, it all goes into one big pot, and as the school probably doesn't publish their accounts, you won't really have much idea about where it goes.

Unform from a designated supplier is probably going to be anywhere from €30-€100, depending on what is included (coat/rainjacket?, tracksuit? ).
 
At the national school that my kids attend, here is what is costs us.

Books JI up to 2nd class - approx 100 per year, including money to the school to cover the cost of photocopying, art material, PE equipment and other classroom consumables.
All children are required to pay this. Hardship cases are private so I dont know how many kids, if any are exempt.

The voluntary contribution is completely separate. It is 100 per family in our school. A letter is sent home requesting it in November, and paying it is voluntary. Every year we are told what it is spent on. In the last few years, it was painting the school one year, replacing 30 year old carpets one year, replacing broken toilets one year.

No designated uniform supplier and it is a standard colour, so very easy to keep costs down. for example, jumpers range in cost from €4 to €20.

From anecdotal evidence, I would say that this school is cheaper to attend than
others in the area.

I would strongly suggest that you make friends with other parents in the area
and find out about the school that your kids will attend.
 
thanks a mill for the info so far.

huskerdu, don't mind me asking - why is the school asking parents to finance the painting of the school? naively I would have thought that this is the responsibility of the state (hence public school) ? :(
 
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Schools are indeed funded by the state, but seriously underfunded for the most part. Principals/Boards of Management have to decide between cleaning or heating or lighting the school. Most schools ask parents for "voluntary" contributions to bridge the gap between income and expenditure. In my experience the school is happy to account for the expenditure and it is rarely frivolous. Some schools ask for say Eur 2 per week per family and more ask for Eur 100 or so up front (often more).
There is also usually a parents' council which engages in fundraising for less essential stuff - books for school library, painting school, extra computers, etc.
Each school is different - they are funded by the state but are private entities run by Boards of Management and owned and patronised by either a church, VEC or Educate Together.
Sybil
 
Our national school, like most others are owned and run by a private organisation ( a church or Educate Together).
The state funds the school in the following way

All teacher salaries are paid by the state
An set amount per pupil is paid for to the school every year. From this, the school pays for all heating, electricity, maintenance etc etc etc. The amount paid does not cover the cost of running and maintaining the school. The school must find the difference from fundraising.

Does anyone know what the government pay per pupil per year ?

A well run school will make clear to parents what each fundraising drive or request is for - arts equipment, PE equipment, building or general school funds.

It is important to find out these things about your local school and getinvolvedto ensure that the funds are used effectively.
 
Complainer said:
In reality, it all goes into one big pot, and as the school probably doesn't publish their accounts, you won't really have much idea about where it goes.
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Schools are required (whether they do or not is another matter) to provide info on accounts to parents, usually through parents' reps on the Board of Management who take the info back to their association's meetings.

What info is provided varies between schools; from detailed breakdowns to just end of year balances with an indication of what was spent on what areas. If schools are not supplying any info they are breaking BOM rules.

Section e, part (ii) below states what should be provided and to whom each year.

Board of Management rules re. Finances
(All board members have the rules in their BOM handbook):

(a) Capital expenditure and works

(i) No alteration, extension or replacement of the school building and/or grounds shall be undertaken by the Board unless and until such have been approved in writing by the Patron and Trustees.


(ii) In addition to the approval required under (i) above, capital expenditure for which grant aid is to be sought must not be entered into until prior written sanction to do so has been received from the Department of Education and Science.


(iii) Boards must comply with current building and planning regulations.


(iv) Nothing in this section shall prevent the Board from carrying out minor works covered by Circular 0141/2006 Grant Scheme for Minor Works to National School Properties. If in doubt on the interpretation of the terms of that circular, the Board should consult with the Building Unit, Department of Education and Science.


(v) The Patron may designate the Chairperson or a member of the Board to act on behalf of the Trustees in dealing with the Department of Education and Science in regard to capital expenses. Such designation must be made in writing.


(b) Capitation

(i) Capitation grants shall be used to meet operating costs such as heating, cleaning, lighting, purchase of teaching materials and maintenance of school premises and grounds.


(ii) Each Board shall arrange, in consultation with the Principal Teacher, for the allocation of a sum of money annually from the capitation grant for the provision of classroom requisites.


(c) Grant Payments

All State grants from the Department shall be used only for the purpose for which they are provided. The Department issues a schedule of anticipated grant payments at the beginning of each school year and subsequent statements at regular intervals confirming the grant payments which have issued over the course of the school year.


These statements issue to the Chairperson and Principal of each school and should be retained carefully for reference for accounting and budgeting purposes. A copy of these statements should also be made available to each member of the Board of Management and to the Parents’ Association.


(d) Insurance

(i) In general, it is the duty of the Board of Management (delegated by the Trustees) to put in place comprehensive insurance cover for the school. In the case of Catholic schools it is the duty of the Trustees in consultation with the Board of Management to insure school property.


(ii) The Board shall ensure that all such insurances are effected and maintained as are necessary to safeguard the school, the Board and the Trustees against all public liability and against the consequences of negligence on the part of any person employed by the Board or any servant or agent of the Board, or any defect in the buildings, premises, furnishings or equipment of the school whereby loss or damage might result to any person in or upon the school premises.


(iii) The following is the position for schools operating from premises owned by the Minister:


A Lease, to be executed between the Minister for Education & Science and the relevant school Patron, is being introduced for schools operating in premises owned by the Minister. Under the terms of that Lease, schools are obliged to take out Public Liability and Employer's Liability insurance but are not required to take out buildings cover. Buildings will be covered by State indemnity.
The Lease will be put into place on a phased basis, starting with schools that are commencing operation in a premises owned by the Minister in the 2007/8 school year. Thereafter, Leases will be put in place for schools already operating in Ministerially-owned premises. It is intended to have Leases put in place for all such schools as soon as practicable. However, up to and until such time as the Lease is executed between the Minister and the relevant Patron, schools operating in Ministerially-owned premises are obliged to have adequate buildings cover in place, along with Public Liability and Employer's Liability insurance.


(iv) The insurance policy shall be available for inspection by interested parties.


(e) Accounting practice

What constitutes an adequate accounting system will depend on the size of the school and the diversity of its activites. However, a computerised template of an efficient accounting system is available, on request, from Primary Administration Section 2, Department of Education and Science, Cornamaddy, Athlone, Co. Westmeath and is also available on the Department’s website at www.education.ie. Boards of Management are asked to consider utilising this package for accounting systems.


Boards may also avail of on-line banking systems, however, the Board must satisfy itself that proper internal controls are in place for the use of on-line banking services and that all proper and usual accounts are kept in respect of each transaction.


(i) All expenditure by or on behalf of the Board of Management must be approved by the Board. The keeping of accounts and records must be in accordance with Section 18 of the Education Act, 1998.


(ii) A total account of the Board's income and expenditure shall be prepared at the end of each school year and shall be properly audited or certified in accordance with best accounting practice. This account should be made available to the school community, the Patron, Trustees and on request the Minister. This account should incorporate details of all accounts which may be maintained separately by the Board in compliance with the terms of particular grant schemes.


(iii) Copies of this account, referred to at (ii) above, shall be presented to members of the Board and a copy of this account retained as part of the minutes of the Board of Management.


(iv) The school accounts shall also be available for audit by officers of the Department of Education and Science and officials of the Comptroller and Auditor General's Office if requested.


(v) All transactions from the school accounts must be signed by the Chairperson and Treasurer. However, the Chairperson may nominate a board member to act as signatory in his/her absence



(f) Budgeting

(i) Boards of Management should budget in such a way as to enable them to meet commitments which may be substantial but which arise only periodically.


(ii) Boards' expenditure should not exceed their annual income.


(iii) Overdrafts or other forms of debts or excesses of expenditure over income must be approved by the Patron, in conjunction with Trustees where required, and should be avoided except for limited periods, and where the Board is satisfied that the overdraft or debt can be cleared by the Board.


(iv) At the commencement of its financial year the Board shall frame and adopt a budget for the year.


(v) This budget should include provision for all relevant items of expenditure such as insurance, purchase of classroom requisites, maintenance costs etc.


(vi) The Board of Management may form a Finance Sub committee to operate under the authority of the Board.


(vii) Fundraising in the name of the school must have the prior consent of the Board of Management. A Parents’ Association should consult with the Board about fundraising for the school or school projects. The approval of the Board is needed before these funds are raised. The expenditure of these funds is by the Board of Management, in consultation with the parents’ association. All monies raised or generated for an agreed project for the school should be lodged to the school account.
 
thanks a mill for your responses. :)

after reading everything i came to realise that i was spoiled as a child going to a german school: no uniforms, books paid for by the state (that has changed now tho), copies and art materials given in class etc. and absolutely no voluntary contribution asked for.

one more question tho: if it states "voluntary" - does it go by definition i.e. if parents find it harder one year than the other to pay the expected contribution, is it up to the parents how much they then give?

thanks again.
 
alaskaonline said:
after reading everything i came to realise that i was spoiled as a child going to a german school: no uniforms,
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Don't assume that no uniform means less cost. You may end up spending more on non-uniform clothes than you would on uniform.
PaddyBloggit said:
Schools are required (whether they do or not is another matter) to provide info on accounts to parents, usually through parents' reps on the Board of Management who take the info back to their association's meetings.

What info is provided varies between schools; from detailed breakdowns to just end of year balances with an indication of what was spent on what areas. If schools are not supplying any info they are breaking BOM rules.

Section e, part (ii) below states what should be provided and to whom each year.

(ii) A total account of the Board's income and expenditure shall be prepared at the end of each school year and shall be properly audited or certified in accordance with best accounting practice. This account should be made available to the school community, the Patron, Trustees and on request the Minister. This account should incorporate details of all accounts which may be maintained separately by the Board in compliance with the terms of particular grant schemes.
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Thanks Paddy - very useful and interesting. Is there any definition of what makes up the 'school community'? Presumably this includes parents?
 
I haven't any definition at hand but certainly parents would be included.

As the makeup of the BOM has community representatives seperate from parents and Patron's nominees then there's no reason why the local community/parish shouldn't have access to details of accounts. Board is made up as follows:


Constitution of Boards of Management:

(a) For schools having a recognised staff of more than one teacher

(i) Two direct nominees of the Patron.


(ii) Two parents of children enrolled in the school (one being a mother, the other a father, elected by the general body of parents of children enrolled in the school).
(Note: To ensure the widest possible representation, where practicable, parents should be from separate families and bear no relationship to any other member of the board),


(iii) The Principal Teacher (or Acting Principal Teacher) of the school.


(iv) One other teacher on the staff of the school, elected by vote of the teaching staff, including the Principal Teacher.


(v) Two extra members proposed by those nominees, described at (i) - (iv) above, acting in accordance with the process set out at Appendix C (see below).


(b) For schools having a recognised staff of one teacher:


(i) One direct nominee of the Patron.


(ii) The Principal of the school.


(iii) One parent elected from parents of pupils enrolled in the school elected by the general body of parents of children enrolled in the school.
(Note: To ensure the widest possible representation, where practicable, parents should bear no relationship to any other member of the staff or board.)


(iv) One extra member proposed by those nominees, described at (i) - (iii) above, acting in accordance with the process set out.


Appendix C:
(This process shall apply mutatis mutandis for the selection of 1 extra member in the case of Boards of schools with 1 teacher)

Procedure for the selection of two members from the community for appointment to the Board of Management

1. The Patron's representative shall convene a meeting of the two nominees of the Patron, the two elected parent representatives, the elected teacher representative and the Principal.

2. This meeting shall be convened within seven days of the completion of the election processes set out in Appendices A and B.

3. At this meeting, having discussed the skill needs of the Board, in line with the criteria set out at 4 below, for the effective management of the school, the members shall propose two extra members from the wider community, agreed unanimously amongst them, to the Patron for appointment.

Every effort shall be made to reach unanimous agreement. However, if the members are experiencing difficulty in this regard they may hold further meetings in order to facilitate the process. A maximum of three such meetings is recommended.

In the event that it is not possible to get unanimous agreement by the third meeting, a majority of 5 to 1 of the members shall propose two extra members from the wider community to the Patron for appointment. These discussions, including the three
recommended meetings, shall conclude within fourteen days. It would be expedient for the members to identify those other persons who might be approached in the event that those initially selected decline the invitation. The members should determine the order in which the persons selected will be approached.

The period for agreement on the selection of the two extra members may be extended from fourteen days to an absolute maximum of twenty-one days but only where the two persons initially selected decline.

If there is failure by the majority of the members to nominate the two extra members as set out above, the Patron shall appoint two members from the persons originally considered by the Board for nomination.


There are different criteria for the difeerent types of schools involved; Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Methodist, Educate Together, Gaelascoileanna/Gaeltacht and Muslim.

If people want to see the criteria used for the different schools I'll post it.
 
purpeller said:
Pricewatch featured this topic on Monday last:
[broken link removed]
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thanks for this article. very insightful and scary to read what schools are capable off if they don't receive their "voluntary contribution".

Don't assume that no uniform means less cost.
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i know what you mean if you refer to the whole brand issue? we did have the brand clothes issue in our school. i didn't wear brand clothes though and fortunately never had to feel any pressure from my class mates so therefore, my mother had by far not the same costs than what I can expect next year.
 
Thanks again , Paddy.

alaskaonline said:
i know what you mean if you refer to the whole brand issue? we did have the brand clothes issue in our school. i didn't wear brand clothes though and fortunately never had to feel any pressure from my class mates so therefore, my mother had by far not the same costs than what I can expect next year.
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Branding is part of it, particularly as kids get older. But even for the younger ones, having them in uniform certainly minimises wear and tear on other clothes.
 
while voluntary contributation is indeed voluntary what some schools do is write to parents to remind them they haven't paid the vol contrib, some schools even get the pupils to remind their parents (dispicible behaviour in my opinion). Schools in the state system cannot insist on the contrib. There are major variances too in what different schools request for in the vol contrib. Local primary charges 50e but school next village charges 100e - very similiar schools. my kids secondaries - one requests 250 and the other 400e, again very similiar schools in terms of age of school, amount of kids, activities they offer. Apart from the vol contrib, remember too that alot of schools will charge for school swimming, maybe after school sports (GAA, basketball, etc), school tours, insurance (although this is one thing I do think is value for money - 12e for 24hr/365 coverage), trips to x, y and x. Some schools even charge for in-school activities like music, art and PE - I find this totally unacceptable though as these items are part of the curriculum and as such, the teachers should be well qualified to teach them without the need to bring in outsiders. Best bet is contact the school, ask for idea of costs, meet with parents who have kids in this school and get idea of costs. When child is in the schoo, join the Parents Assocation as you can very often have a great say in the way money is spent and what is good value or not.
 
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