Threat to all of our pensions: Ó Cuív says OA Pension cuts cannot be ruled out

I have no problem paying OAP's €230 a week. The elderly in our society deserve our gratitude and respect. I also have no problem paying people who find themselves suddenly unemployed after years of working €200 a week. I do have a problem with the whole universal aspect of social welfare though. Like child benefit, some people do not need it. We have limited resources and what resources we do have should be targeted at the most vunerable.
We need to ask ourselves what type of welfare system we want. I don't believe in comparing ourselves to the UK or any other Country. I am proud that we look after our vunerable as long as they are truely vunerable. There is little doubt that there are far too many people benefiting from welfare that don't need it whether that is in child allowance, OAP, Rent allowance, single parent allowance, Job seekers allowance etc....
 
Sunny said:
I have no problem paying OAP's €230 a week. The elderly in our society deserve our gratitude and respect. I also have no problem paying people who find themselves suddenly unemployed after years of working €200 a week. I do have a problem with the whole universal aspect of social welfare though. Like child benefit, some people do not need it. We have limited resources and what resources we do have should be targeted at the most vunerable.
We need to ask ourselves what type of welfare system we want. I don't believe in comparing ourselves to the UK or any other Country. I am proud that we look after our vunerable as long as they are truely vunerable. There is little doubt that there are far too many people benefiting from welfare that don't need it whether that is in child allowance, OAP, Rent allowance, single parent allowance, Job seekers allowance etc....
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This is the best approach. Not blanket cuts. Means testing is the way
 
Sunny said:
I have no problem paying OAP's €230 a week. The elderly in our society deserve our gratitude and respect. I also have no problem paying people who find themselves suddenly unemployed after years of working €200 a week. I do have a problem with the whole universal aspect of social welfare though. Like child benefit, some people do not need it. We have limited resources and what resources we do have should be targeted at the most vunerable.
We need to ask ourselves what type of welfare system we want. I don't believe in comparing ourselves to the UK or any other Country. I am proud that we look after our vunerable as long as they are truely vunerable. There is little doubt that there are far too many people benefiting from welfare that don't need it whether that is in child allowance, OAP, Rent allowance, single parent allowance, Job seekers allowance etc....
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A lot of sound bites in there.

The trouble is that respect and gratitude our OAPs are in receipt of at the moment is coming from the international money markets, not us.

OAPs currently represent a flat tax of about 6% on all workers. By the time most of us will have retired this will have increased to 15% due to demographics.

If we can't afford 6% now (we are borrowing to pay it rather than funding it from taxes) what makes anyone think we will be able to afford 15% in the future.

I have no respect for the following:
1) The view that we can bury our heads in the sand and declare any aspect of public spending untouchable
2) The view that it is right that many working people are giving up upwards of 20% of their net pay and we should not have so much as a token gesture from OAPs in an environment of falling prices

So give me a break on gratitude and respect until such a time as we actually have to make a genuine sacrifice to prove it
 
What about just cutting the non-contributory State pension, as these people have not worked enough or paid enough PRSI?

Surely those who work and pay PRSI deserve more than those who haven't?
 
becky said:
I agree high earning pensioners can afford a cut, I just don't agree there are lots and lots of them earning €35,000 pa.
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The only fair solution to this is tax. If we believe that those earning €35k should be making a contribution, then we tax all those earning €35k, regardless of the source of their income.

Niallers said:
Very True, I work for one of those companies and I deal with EMEA in the morning and US in the afternoon.

The time Zone is another factor definetly to our benefit.
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csirl said:
If you look at the advanced western countries on a map of the world, Ireland is the most centrally located - right in the middle with Europe to the east and USA to the west. We downgrade our mid-Atlantic location too much. Its the best location in the world.
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Indeed, having worked in a US multinational, I think our time zone is a huge benefit. The lack of any overlap in office hours between much of the US and India has been a huge hinderance to India.
 
DerKaiser said:
A lot of sound bites in there.

The trouble is that respect and gratitude our OAPs are in receipt of at the moment is coming from the international money markets, not us.

OAPs currently represent a flat tax of about 6% on all workers. By the time most of us will have retired this will have increased to 15% due to demographics.

If we can't afford 6% now (we are borrowing to pay it rather than funding it from taxes) what makes anyone think we will be able to afford 15% in the future.

I have no respect for the following:
1) The view that we can bury our heads in the sane and declare any aspect of public spending untouchable
2) The view that it is right that many working people are giving up upwards of 20% of their net pay and we should not have so much as a token gesture from OAPs in an environment of falling prices

So give me a break on gratitude and respect until such a time as we actually have to make a genuine sacrifice to prove it
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Show me where I said the OAP or any other aspect of social welfare was untouchable? Unlike you or many other people on this site, I don't pretend to understand what it is like to try and live on €200 or €230 per week as your only source of income. There are genuine hardship cases out there and I don't care how many economic facts you throw out, these people need to be protected.
As I pointed out, there are many people in receipt of various social welfare payments that don't need them. Target these people first before trying to introduce a crude blanket cut. Lets see how much that will save us. It is the same with the medical card. The Government should never of backed down. There are people in receipt of the card that don't need it.
My point is that I have nothing against a generous social welfare system as long as it is targeted at the people who genuinely need it.
 
Complainer said:
The only fair solution to this is tax. If we believe that those earning €35k should be making a contribution, then we tax all those earning €35k, regardless of the source of their income.





.
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I agree with that suggestion. Easiest and cleanest solution
 
Purple said:
We are a small island off the coast of a bigger island off the coast of Europe. Costs are higher here than in most of Western Europe and all of the Eastern Europe. Companies here have access to a tiny pool of skilled labour (There are 20 million people within a two hour drive of Düsseldorf). The notion that we have a world class education system is laughable. Our ability to link between universities and industry is (and I’m being very kind here) embryonic. We have very low levels of multilingualism and we have very little indigenous industry.

Add to that the fact that we are an island so supply-chain management costs and times are high; the cost of unprocessed iron ore or other basic raw materials is irrelevant. Dell moved to Poland to be closer to their supply chain and their markets, as well as the labour costs. Anyone who thinks our location doesn’t matter when it comes to manufacturing needs their head examined.

It’s all about the tax breaks, the rest is just stuff we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better.
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While I agree with virtually everything you've said here (which may just be a first) Dell should probably be a lesson to other companies in how not to transfer production - huge time delays on their products since they moved to Poland - the IDA should make a note of that when 'selling' Ireland abroad.
 
DerKaiser said:
A lot of sound bites in there.

The trouble is that respect and gratitude our OAPs are in receipt of at the moment is coming from the international money markets, not us.

OAPs currently represent a flat tax of about 6% on all workers. By the time most of us will have retired this will have increased to 15% due to demographics.

If we can't afford 6% now (we are borrowing to pay it rather than funding it from taxes) what makes anyone think we will be able to afford 15% in the future.

I have no respect for the following:
1) The view that we can bury our heads in the sane and declare any aspect of public spending untouchable
2) The view that it is right that many working people are giving up upwards of 20% of their net pay and we should not have so much as a token gesture from OAPs in an environment of falling prices

So give me a break on gratitude and respect until such a time as we actually have to make a genuine sacrifice to prove it
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De Kaiser,
Most people want a society that looks after our elderly and vulnerable.

Maybe you would have all the old people killed off when they came to retirement age and all the other vulnerable people killed off. It would be much easier than looking after them.

The below seems to be your idea of heaven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's_Run

Remember , you will be old someday.
 
Niallers said:
De Kaiser,
Most people want a society that looks after our elderly and vulnerable.

Maybe you would have all the old people killed off when they retired and all the other vulnerable people keilled off. It would be much easier than looking after them.
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Eh?? :confused:

So anyone who thinks that pensions should not be exempt from cuts is a closet advocate of mass-murder?

Now you're not just stretching it...
 
Sunny said:
I don't care how many economic facts you throw out, these people need to be protected.
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Well the sad fact is that we do live in a world where economic facts matter.

Sooner or later we will not only have to stop borrowing, but will also be obliged to start making repayments on the debts we have run up.

Do you not worry about this day?

Do you not think that we will get to a situation where we will have to live within our means?

In college I definitely lived on less than the level of the OAP (having to pay rent) and it's increased 60% in real terms since then.

In my view, the difference between say €200 and €230 in the OAP will cause far less pain than where we will end up if we do nothing.

The point is that a person with a medical card and free accomodation will not starve or freeze on €200 or even €150 p.w.

If, however, we continue to rack up massive debts, then we could get to a situation where the country can not even afford to give free medical care or €150 p.w. to our OAPs in the future. Don't be so naive, foolish or optimistic as to belive that this could not happen.
 
Topic Reminder:

The subject of this thread is the proposed cuts to Social Welfare OA pension floated by Min OCuiv.
[broken link removed]

I wonder does Minister for Social Protection Ó Cuív wish to go down in history with Minister Ernest Blythe in 1924 when he reduced old-age pensions from 10 shillings (50p) to 9 shillings (45p) a week.

wiki said:
In the 1933 general election Blythe lost his seat.

Blythe was a senior figure in the Blueshirts and his support for the fascist leader Eoin O'Duffy
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ajapale said:
Topic Reminder:

The subject of this thread is the proposed cuts to Social Welfare OA pension floated by Min OCuiv.
[broken link removed]

I wonder does Minister for Social Protection Ó Cuív wish to go down in history with Minister Ernest Blythe in 1924 when he reduced old-age pensions from 10 shillings (50p) to 9 shillings (45p) a week.
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So FG's grandaddy cut pensions. Would they have the balls to do it now?
 
I have paid PRSI for over 30 year, (plus taxes) where has my money gone? it is spent by the Government, If I had saved it and invested it I would have ample pension by now, pension is my entitlement.
I have a doctors visiting card, I also spend the maximum amount each month on medication for myself and my wife, which was recently increase to €120, I must pay if I go in to hospital or have dental treatment. This has all taken from my allowance.
 
The money we are paying in today is paying the current pensioners. We will never see a red cent of it.
 
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