Will CRH shares be subject to US Federal Estate Taxes?

FintanJ said:
after all this is done, will crh be deemed us asset for us federal estate tax?
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With the number of Irish companies that might be following the same route, and the number of "American" companies registered in Ireland that would presumably be treated the same way and that might be interesting to invest in to provide diversity (Accenture, Medtronic, etc.), it seems important to establish this with certainty. I would have said that they would definitely not be subject to US estate tax as they are not "US corporations" (since they are registered in Ireland), but the surprising fact that you still need to submit a W-8BEN makes me doubt my understanding.
 
For what it's worth, according to Dominic Coyle in the Irish Times...
www.irishtimes.com

Dominic Coyle's Q&A: Sorting out the nitty gritty of CRH’s move to New York Stock Exchange

Q&A: Departure of Dublin’s stock market kingpin has left a lot of small shareholders looking for answers
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
Q: In the event of the death of an Irish CRH shareholder resident in Ireland after the US listing takes place (the shares being held in certificated form at the present time in the shareholder’s sole name), will a US grant of probate or similar document have to be extracted after the death to enable the shares to be dealt with by the executors? Or will the US-based registrar be able to act at the executors’ request on production of an Irish grant of probate, as would be the case at the present time in view of the shares being an Irish asset?

Mr P.H.

A: Good question. The last thing you want at a time like that is having to clear probate across two jurisdictions. Computershare noted that even now that the listing has moved to the US, CRH remains an Irish company, incorporated and tax resident here, not in the US.

So, on that basis, it seems like Irish probate would cover it. Computershare says expressly: “The NYSE listing does not introduce any new or additional requirements for a US grant of probate on death.”
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What about the dividend withholding taxes the Irish government automatically gets from Irish shares listed in Dublin? Does that now mean that this dividend tax is now gone from the Irish government as they are now listed in the US?
 
They will still get the tax on the dividends - the withholding tax is just a prepayment

The tax on dividends is paid by the owner of the shares -
 
But they won't get it automatically now, they will be depending on share holders to self declare the dividend now won't they?
 
joe sod said:
But they won't get it automatically now, they will be depending on share holders to self declare the dividend now won't they?
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It depends on how the shares are held. If through an Irish broker for example, the broker withholds tax.
Long term the loss to exchequer is stamp duty on share purchases. I think CRH was something like 100m per annum.
 
CRH can be listed in New York and remain tax resident in Ireland. If this is the case the Irish dividend withholding tax will apply. The Irish tax is applied whether the broker is Irish based or not.
 
I asked Cantor Fitzgerald about what would happen when CRH shares delisted from Dublin. They said that unless someone specifically wanted to have them on the US 'line' (their word) they would be putting them in London as the tax treatment is better i.e. no witholding tax and no issues with inheritance. They also said that if at some point in the future I wanted them moved to the US 'line' then this was not a problem.
 
outofmymind said:
I asked Cantor Fitzgerald about what would happen when CRH shares delisted from Dublin. They said that unless someone specifically wanted to have them on the US 'line' (their word) they would be putting them in London as the tax treatment is better i.e. no witholding tax and no issues with inheritance. They also said that if at some point in the future I wanted them moved to the US 'line' then this was not a problem.
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Yes I see they are also listed in London but in pounds, presumably they already had this listing before and are keeping it. However I was under the impression that irish stocks listed in London were still subject to irish dividend witholding taxes. I have DCC share listed in London but the irish dividend witholding taxes are still deducted
 
joe sod said:
Yes I see they are also listed in London but in pounds, presumably they already had this listing before and are keeping it. However I was under the impression that irish stocks listed in London were still subject to irish dividend witholding taxes. I have DCC share listed in London but the irish dividend witholding taxes are still deducted
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Yes - they have been listed in London all along. CF say they expect the UK/Sterling price to track the US/Dollar price. Obviously Irish withholding tax is always payable, but can be reclaimed for those below the income tax threshold and can be offset against income tax due for those who are above the threshold. US withholding tax cannot be reclaimed AFAIK.
 
My mother passed away during Summer 2023 and had a significant Irish CRH share holding, which was held in a Computershare account, i.e. not with a broker.

Subsequent to her death, while the probate process was underway, her Irish CRH shares became US CRH shares. Computershare (US) have now informed me that to transfer these shares to me, as per the will, that I need to go through the US Federal Estate Tax (FET) process, which can take at least a year to complete.

Reading the instructions in the US FET Form ( 706-NA), it appears, to me at least, that the Estate Tax is calculated off of the Asset Value at time of death, not the current value. The US asset value at time of death was clearly 0, as the US shares didn't exist. I rang the US IRS to ask if this interpretation was correct, and could I hence ignore the need to even make an US FET filing, but the question was deemed too complex for them to answer on the phone, with them recommending that I engage a professional in the field.

So my question is if anyone has had a similar expereince, or a recommendation of where I can find a professional to help me resolve this situation.
 
The shares always had a value. The change was just in the place they were traded.

The problem is that your shares are now in existence in the US because computershare US has custody.

If your mother posted a valuable painting to the US and then died before the painting arrived into the US, would you be liable for US tax on inheritance ?

CRH is still an Irish registered company so you could argue that the shares are not a US asset. They are an Irish asset owned by an Irish citizen and are mearly held in US custody.
 
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GettingOn said:
My mother passed away during Summer 2023 and had a significant Irish CRH share holding, which was held in a Computershare account, i.e. not with a broker.

Subsequent to her death, while the probate process was underway, her Irish CRH shares became US CRH shares. Computershare (US) have now informed me that to transfer these shares to me, as per the will, that I need to go through the US Federal Estate Tax (FET) process, which can take at least a year to complete.

Reading the instructions in the US FET Form ( 706-NA), it appears, to me at least, that the Estate Tax is calculated off of the Asset Value at time of death, not the current value. The US asset value at time of death was clearly 0, as the US shares didn't exist. I rang the US IRS to ask if this interpretation was correct, and could I hence ignore the need to even make an US FET filing, but the question was deemed too complex for them to answer on the phone, with them recommending that I engage a professional in the field.

So my question is if anyone has had a similar expereince, or a recommendation of where I can find a professional to help me resolve this situation.
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I will be in same position in next year or so Is there a professional service in Dublin that can manage/sort it out ? Very complicated !
 
S class said:
CRH is still an Irish registered company so you could argue that the shares are not a US asset.
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No need to argue the point with Computershare - they've already acknowledged it is an Irish situate asset for inheritance tax purposes in their very own document here:


"CRH plc is an Irish incorporated and tax resident entity and its shares are Irish situate assets for US inheritance tax purposes"

GettingOn said:
Computershare (US) have now informed me that to transfer these shares to me, as per the will, that I need to go through the US Federal Estate Tax (FET) process, which can take at least a year to complete.
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Before engaging a professional and incurring fees I'd contact Computershare again to raise it up the chain (using the document I've linked to on the CRH website and making sure that they have confirmation that your mother is not a US citizen or US domiciled). It would also be no harm to contact CRH investor relations to double check their understanding. They can't give you tax advice obviously but the general point that the effect of the listing move and US Estate Tax on Irish resident investors must have been considered.

Also, it is worth considering the general point from page 80 of this Irish Revenue guide:


"The U.S. imposes federal estate tax on worldwide assets if the disponer was a US citizen or was domiciled in one of the States of the U.S., otherwise only property situated in the U.S. is liable to federal estate tax (subject to certain exceptions)".

As you can see from the referenced guide, shares incorporated in Ireland are Irish situate property and assuming the deceased was not a US citizen or domiciled, you shouldn't have to go through the FET process based on my initial read of this situation.
 
Thanks for the replies to date on the above. I will go back to Computershare, as suggested, but based on previous conversations, I suspect I will need to get a professional involved. Does anyone have any suggestions on a professional that could help?
 
GettingOn said:
Does anyone have any suggestions on a professional that could help?
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www.bealltaxconsulting.com

Beall Tax Consulting: US Tax Advisory & Compliance Services | Private Client Tax

Beall Tax Consulting is an Irish based private client tax practice, specialising in US, Irish & UK tax interactions, pensions, compliance and global mobility. A US tax advisory service that caters to the needs of Green Card holders, Expats as well as US residents.
www.bealltaxconsulting.com www.bealltaxconsulting.com

I've no connection to this firm or their personnel.

I've seen a presentation they did in this area and can say that they have deep expertise on Irish & US tax matters and if I was looking to get clarification on your issue, I'd contact them.
 
Once I get fully through this, I will write up a summary, removing any specifics to my case, and post here. I suspect that will however not be anytime soon.
 
My understanding is that they (the white haired brigade) were all told by the board at the AGM that there would be no difficulties with moving the shares to America... My advice was to just sell the shares before the move and reminded them of their Elan and IRS tax issues. This did not go down at all well. Recently, I have learned they have more IRS issues because the shares are multiple different holdings with combinations of his, her and joints names. Anyway, it is not my (currently) problem. But I wish you luck and would also like to know the outcome, because the day will come when I will also have to sort the mess out :-(
 
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