Why is Bitcoin "digital gold" crashing right now?

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tecate said:
This is where the hypocrisy comes in. You summarily dismiss Bitcoin on the basis that it lacks intrinsic value yet for all of your days, you've been supportive of a currency (and terrible store of value) that has zero intrinsic value - the €uro (and the dollar and all other FIAT currencies).
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Hi tecate

I haven't commented much on fiat currencies. You have had that dispute mainly with the Duke.

I must say that I am nervous about the value of currencies given the QE. But the solution is not to move my money from euro into a bag of hot air.

I don't think I am hypocritical on the issue of Bitcoin. Often in discussing a topic, one can have two mutually exclusive opinions and then you try to resolve them. That is not hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy would be if I were talking about how worthless Bitcoin was while simultaneously building up a big holding of it.

Brendan
 
tecate said:
tulips don't even come into consideration here in the Bitcoin context.
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You can't just dismiss the arguments you don't like.

There was a mania which caused people to pay massive amounts of money for something which was worth very little.

Bitcoin is a mania where people are paying huge amounts of money for something which is worth nothing.

Clearly you are part of this mania, so you can't see it as a mania. That is why I think you should read the Madness of Crowds. You will laugh at the stupidity of these clever people and then you might go "Oh, oh..."

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
I haven't commented much on fiat currencies.
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Exactly my point. You won't look past intrinsic value and you won't acknowledge my rationale as to how Bitcoin offsets intrinsic value yet for all of your life you've been using and continue to use a currency that has no intrinsic value. You can't just dismiss the arguments you don't like. I say again - it's hypocritical.

Brendan Burgess said:
I don't think I am hypocritical on the issue of Bitcoin. Often in discussing a topic, one can have two mutually exclusive opinions and then you try to resolve them. That is not hypocrisy.
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Hypocrisy is where you completely slate one store of value/currency on the basis of it lacking intrinsic value whilst all the while using another currency that has no intrinsic value. It's due an explanation.

Brendan Burgess said:
Hypocrisy would be if I were talking about how worthless Bitcoin was while simultaneously building up a big holding of it.
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Goldman Sachs have gotten there before you on that one.

Brendan Burgess said:
You can't just dismiss the arguments you don't like.
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Absolutely - and that's why I'm calling you out on it.

Brendan Burgess said:
There was a mania which caused people to pay massive amounts of money for something which was worth very little.
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So there's over exuberance in markets be it the Celtic Tiger Property Market, the dot com boom, Bitcoin or the bonkers equities markets right now that go up in the face of every economic indicator suggesting that they should be going the other way. There was over exuberance in 2017/8 and that's why I exited the market temporarily at that point.

Brendan Burgess said:
Bitcoin is a mania where people are paying huge amounts of money for something which is worth nothing.
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We're eleven years on since the Bitcoin network went live. We're a couple of years on since the hype peaked. There's little in the way of 'mania' right now.
As regards price, price is a function of supply and demand. Within that, the universally accepted characteristics of what makes a decent store of value play a part - particularly but in no way exclusively, scarcity. The building out of the digital assets eco-system plays a part. The growing credibility and acceptance of Bitcoin as a store of value plays a part. Adoption is also meaningful in the context of the iterative Bitcoin price discovery process.

Brendan Burgess said:
Clearly you are part of this mania, so you can't see it as a mania. That is why I think you should read the Madness of Crowds. You will laugh at the stupidity of these clever people and then you might go "Oh, oh..."
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As I've mentioned, I've read a couple of books on the psychology of markets. As I have been doing, I will get in and out of the market if I sense that there's an irrationality about the market. That's not to be found right now.

And something that you yourself will have to get over at some stage. You need to get up to speed with what decentralised digital currencies actually are and the value they bring to the table. You can suggest that they're mispriced. But to continue with these nonsensical comparisons that you persist with and not acknowledge the difference is entirely inaccurate and misleading to anyone reading this thread and trying to form an opinion on Bitcoin.
 
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tecate said:
With that debt backed FIAT approach came exactly that - debt. Is that what society needs - everyone up to their tonsils in debt?
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And you accuse me of being offensive in calling it a "cult". A world without government. A world without banks. A world without debt. Debt is an essential part of the human economic condition. People accumulate assets during their economic lives to support them in retirement. This is in large part facilitated through the financial system by the older asset rich generation lending to the income rich younger generation.
Maybe there is a niche for a cult to indulge in a government free, bank free, debt free, interest rate free utopia.
But the real world will stick to the modern structures of our civilisation, including a well regulated fiat currency, which have been developed over centuries.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
And you accuse me of being offensive in calling it a "cult".
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Of course I did and I do. There is no-one that has participated in this discussion on AAM and is open minded in their consideration of Bitcoin and decentralised currencies (evidently that excludes yourself and Brendan) that considers themselves part of a 'cult' on account of that.

Duke of Marmalade said:
A world without government.
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WHERE did I ever suggest that we should have a world without government? Where?

Duke of Marmalade said:
A world without banks.
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WHERE did I ever suggest that we should have a world without banks? Where?
I may in past discussion have said that having the ability to store and transact value without an intermediary is my preference. I didn't say that we will have or that we have to have a world without banks.

Duke of Marmalade said:
A world without debt.
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WHERE did I ever suggest that we should have a world without debt? Where?
I said that 'a world up to its tonsils in debt' is not good for society. I was referring to staggering levels of per capita (and national level) debt that western societies have reached. You believe that such runaway debt levels are good for society? - you're on your own on that one.

Duke of Marmalade said:
People accumulate assets during their economic lives to support them in retirement.
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And the same can be achieved via reinstatement of a savings culture.

Duke of Marmalade said:
This is in large part facilitated through the financial system by the older asset rich generation lending to the income rich younger generation.
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Whilst also overburdening them with sovereign debt and encouraging them to over-extend themselves on personal debt.

Duke of Marmalade said:
Maybe there is a niche for a cult to indulge in a government free, bank free, debt free, interest rate free utopia.
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Dear God! :rolleyes:Resistant to change much, your Dukeness? Book recommendations have been a thing on this thread so https://www.amazon.com/Who-Moved-My-Cheese-Mazing-ebook/dp/B004CR6AM4 (let me make one for you).

Duke of Marmalade said:
But the real world will stick to the modern structures of our civilisation, including a well regulated fiat currency, which have been developed over centuries.
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@Dublinbay12 made a suggestion to you with regard to monetary system evolution and development which is entirely relevant to this statement of yours:
Dublinbay12 said:
Your point alludes to the evolution of the monetary system much like mine, so why not give Bitcoin the same opportunity?
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If on the one hand you accept the development of monetary systems over centuries, perhaps you might also consider being open to that ongoing development as per his suggestion above. Just a thought your Dukeness.
 
tecate you have an annoying habit of picking literally on points which are obviously rhetorical. For total accuracy let me describe the cult as anti government, anti bank and anti debt, or for total total accuracy more anti/anti/anti than the rest of us. Others will recognise what I mean so please don't prolong the semantic debate on this point.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Others will recognise what I mean so please don't prolong the semantic debate on this point.
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And that's exactly why I will take you to task on it - because it's a misrepresentation. Bitcoin is not a 'cult'. I don't belong to any 'cults'. How am I 'anti' everything? I believe in iterative progression. Nothing stands still (although some stand in the way!). You refer to the ongoing development of monetary systems - and that's where my interest lies.
You might want to frame it in a certain way as you disagree with my opinion but this 'cult' nonsense is not helpful to the thread. I'd suggest you drop it (but don't think for a second that I won't be correcting you on it if you're going to carry on with that misrepresentation).
 
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Hi tecate

There is also a reference to the cult of the equity which is the blind belief in the equity markets.

I am not suggesting that you are worshipping any guru or engaging in arcane spiritual practices.

But you have adopted an irrational belief that a bag of hot air is worth something. I am not sure whether you believe it is worth $1 , $10,000 or $100,000. But anything over $1 is a cult. It's an irrational devotion to something with no substance.

Brendan
 
Brendan,

There's no justification for the use of that type of negative word association. It's unhelpful to anyone trying to follow this thread and it's entirely inaccurate. The same as your 'hot air' / 'toe nail' / 'poetry' / 'tulip' references are totally inappropriate and inaccurate in the context of consideration of a store of value such as Bitcoin (which possesses all of the characteristics of a good store of value unlike these nonsensical things you try and liken it to).

Brendan Burgess said:
There is also a reference to the cult of the equity which is the blind belief in the equity markets. I am not suggesting that you are worshipping any guru or engaging in arcane spiritual practices.
But you have adopted an irrational belief that a bag of hot air is worth something. I am not sure whether you believe it is worth $1 , $10,000 or $100,000. But anything over $1 is a cult. It's an irrational devotion to something with no substance.
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If we must go round in circles, then on we go. This is my response with regard to intrinsic value ->
tecate said:
You summarily dismiss Bitcoin on the basis that it lacks intrinsic value yet for all of your days, you've been supportive of a currency (and terrible store of value) that has zero intrinsic value - the €uro (and the dollar and all other FIAT currencies).
How do you square that? You'll say that its backed by the government. In real terms, what does that even mean? What does it mean to the people of <insert long list of a gazillion countries that have mismanaged their sovereign currencies>? What does it mean to citizens of all the other countries where their central banks/governments have made mistakes in tinkering with monetary policy that have cost them dearly?
How Bitcoin Offsets Intrinsic Value
And it is right here in the weakness of FIAT currency that Bitcoin is offsetting that intrinsic value requirement in spades. You don't get this - but one by one, millions do so. It's the fact that people trust in it because it works within completely trustless parameters. There is no tinkering - it's all set out and pre-programmed. Nobody will be printing off more of it. Nobody will be tinkering with it. Nobody will be left wondering what some unelected unknown officials will do in setting its interest rate - as all stakeholders already know. There's no mystery - the rules of the game are totally transparent. This built in assumed lack of trust is where people are finding value in Bitcoin. They're also being led towards this realisation due to sustained mismanagement of FIAT money and an ever growing distrust of those that manage sovereign currencies.
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We're still waiting for an explanation as to how you believe one thing is worthless on solely an 'intrinsic value' basis (casting aside what's set out above in terms of Bitcoin's trustless nature) yet you won't apply the same standard to €uro, USD, etc. I invite you to address that.

As regards your suggestion that any valuation over $1 is a travesty, you've reminded me of another aspect to all of this and that's Henry Ford's Energy Standard. It takes a hell of a lot of energy to mine and mint Bitcoin and run the Bitcoin network. It's the energy backed currency that Ford aspired to.
 
tecate said:
As regards your suggestion that any valuation over $1 is a travesty
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He tecate

Have you given your own valuation of Bitcoin on askaboutmoney? Is it worth $1 or $1m? How did you arrive at it.

I am sure you have answered this - you might just link me to it.

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Duke has explained this more than once to you and in a much more informed way than I can.
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If we're going by what Duke has said, then it's backed by nothing, nada, zilch. That leaves your claim against Bitcoin as a double standard.

And in fact, now that you've reminded me, I'm rolling back on that view that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value seeing as it's an energy backed standard.
 
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Can't you just freeze this thread, email it to us (scheduled for ten years time) and we can get on with things until all is revealed?
 
tecate said:
In terms of arriving at that valuation, this is something that we both discussed last year and with that, there's some info pending from you as per this post here.
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I had a quick look at that thread. So it seems that you have no way at all of working out whether Bitcoin is $1, $100 or $10,000 or $1m?

That tells us all we need to know.

Brendan
 
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