Who are these FF supporters?

[Kine]

look at Greece and see where they are at the moment. 12 months ago Ireland was in the same place as them. I know of foreign investors who were piling out of Irish Soverign Debt. Having spoken to these guys recently at a conference and hearing people talk, people should not underestimate the regard that Lenihan (and the government) is held in internationally for the budgets he introduced, NAMA and in the way he dealt with foreign investors at the height of the crisis by going around Europe and meeting with these guys and putting Ireland's case forward.

+1 as foreign investors are where the buck stops. If we didn't do things right, they would buy the debt we need to issue to run the country.

And anyone who thinks we can cut out Ireland's over expenditure overnight is missing the big picture...look at the "hassle" the last budget, which is only the tip of the iceberg, has caused!

I'll vote for whoever comes up with the best policies, if it's FF then so be it.

 

[UFC]

Lenihan really struggled at the beginning of his brief but if you want to know why Lenihan is doing such a good job, look at Greece and see where they are at the moment. 12 months ago Ireland was in the same place as them. I know of foreign investors who were piling out of Irish Soverign Debt. Having spoken to these guys recently at a conference and hearing people talk, people should not underestimate the regard that Lenihan (and the government) is held in internationally for the budgets he introduced, NAMA and in the way he dealt with foreign investors at the height of the crisis by going around Europe and meeting with these guys and putting Ireland's case forward.

Personally I would rather he put the citizens of Ireland first, not the foreign investors.

I don't think you understand why the foreign investors really like him.

Hint: It has nothing to do with him doing what's best for Ireland.

Do you seriously expect any politician in any democracy to sort out major systemic economic problems in a matter of months?
Given that our stupid and undemocratic system makes it so hard for any government to make hard decisions it’s nothing short of miraculous that anything gets done. What we can see is a plan, based on a medium term policy, formulated by someone who understands their brief. It’s a long time since we had that in this country.

I don't expect him to sort things out within a few months, but he's been in the job nearly two years and he still hasn't made the hard but necessary decisions.

What's going to happening in a few months when the ECB stop throwing money at us? How will we continue to overpay our PS workers and unemployed?

With the exception of the banks issue (on which I'm certain nobody truly knows what will turn out to be the best solution), Brian Lenihan would be the closest option you have to achieving what you see as objectives for the country. Would Joan Burton and Richard Bruton be quicker to reduce the PS wage bill, the minimum wage and social welfare?

I do not know what anyone else would have done, but at least Bruton is an Oxford educated Economist. Lenihan is a solicitor.

 

[Purple]

I do not know what anyone else would have done, but at least Bruton is an Oxford educated Economist. Lenihan is a solicitor.

Garret Fitzgerald is an economist with a PhD and is great on the theory but he screwed the economy up completely when he was in charge. Ruari Quinn is an architect and he did a great job as minister for finance. Ray McSharry was a haulier and he did a great job as well. The fact that Richard Bruton did a PhD in Oxford doesn’t outweigh his inability to construct a sound economic policy for his party.

 

[Mpsox]

I'm 40 years old and voted FF in the last election. I'm not sure if I would vote for them in the next election, but I wouldn't rule it out.

So why did I vote for FF. There were a number of reasons

Partially history, I came from a FF family, grew up listening to stories from my grand parents and grand uncle of how so and so's father over the road in the big farm was a blue shirt and how his father tried to burn us out in the war etc etc. I know some of the "suave sophisticated" posters on here will sneer at that and I accept that it may not be a logical reason for voting FF, but how we are brought up has an impact on the rest of our lives, for better or for worst.

Partially because we know our local TD at home very well. He is a decent local man, doesn't own rental properties and has an ordinary enough bungalow, is a qualified accountant and has helped my family on a number of issues. Damm good clean hurler as well in his day and where I come from, that's as good a way as any of taking a measure of a man.

Partially because in some areas, FF delivered a lot of positive things over the last 10 years, the reduction in income taxes, the improved infrastructure and the peace process in Northern Ireland for example. The latter to me is a key thing that has changed the face of Ireland and whilst FF didn't deliver it, I also believe that if it had not been for the efforts of people like Albert Reynolds and Bertie that it would not have happened. I've heard bombs go off, I lived in London for 10 years and I've felt my house shake when the Canary Wharf bomb went off, I've had my desk blown to pieces when the Bishopgate bomb went off and had to turn up at another one of my companys offices in London on the following Monday with my broad Irish accent. I've walked down a street in London when a litter bin bomb went off on the street running parallel to it. The peace process is the most important thing to happen in Ireland in the last 40 years and we should never forget that or be thankful for those who made a big leap of faith to try and make it work.

Having said all of that, I'm also intelligent enough to know that FF have, at the end of the day, made a complete and utter horses rear end of things. Some of it was not their fault (eg the global crisis), but the lack of control and squandermania that existed in Ireland has to be largely attributed to them.

So, would I vote for FF again? I honestly don't know and if I was surveyed, I'd put myself into the don't know category. I do have a major issue with Brian Cowen, to me he is completly out of his depth, provides no guidance, leadership or inspiration and is letting the Green Party and independent tails wag the dog. Certainly if he was leader of FF in 3 years time, I'd have to consider not voting for them. Part of me says 5 years in opposition could be good for FF to allow it to clear out people like Cowan, the O'Keefes and that eejit in Kildare who tried to delay the opening of the M8 late last year. I do have a lot of respect for the likes of Brian Lenihan, I don't agree with everything he has done (eg I think he moved far too slow on the banks) but at least he is trying to do something and has clearly learnt an awful lot in 12 months. Perhaps most importantly of all, he has realised that a lot of what happened in the past was wrong and is trying to unravel it. Problem is, it'll take a long time and it's a difficult and thankless road.

My main problem is if I don't vote FF, who do I vote for?. Not in a million years would I vote for Labour since they are funded by the public sector trade unions and therefore won't make the tough decisions that need to be made in regards to public sector finances. Plus Joan Burton's voice gives me a headache.

Sinn Fein?, please, let's get serious here.

Greens?, I actually have some time for them in that at least they've made a better effort at trying to control the worst FF excesses then the PDs ever did, but God love em, they're a bit out of their depth

Which leaves FG. Aside from the fact that my ancestors would haunt me, Enda K sends me to sleep, I actually think he could get away with doing anything in power because the whole country would be bored senseless. All joking asside, my issue with FG is that they are fast to criticise and slow to come up with some imaginative ideas. They don't have the courage to come out and outline the tough decisions they would need to make were they in power. Let's remember that whoever is in power, the cuts will still need to be made and the taxes risen or we are going to be in a worse position then we now are
I also remain to be convinced that George Lee can walk the walk. Throw in the thought of the likes of Varadker being at the cabinet and a coalition with Labour and suddenly I'm actually a bit scared.

There's a lot of people on here won't agree with what I have posted, that's fine, that's their perogitive in a free and open democracy, in the same way I may well disagree with their views. However whilst I can actually think of a lot of reasons not to vote FF, I also at the minute can't find one reason to vote for someone else. There's the dilema

 

[UFC]

Garret Fitzgerald is an economist with a PhD and is great on the theory but he screwed the economy up completely when he was in charge. Ruari Quinn is an architect and he did a great job as minister for finance. Ray McSharry was a haulier and he did a great job as well. The fact that Richard Bruton did a PhD in Oxford doesn’t outweigh his inability to construct a sound economic policy for his party.

I agree you never know how good someone will be until they're in the job. Bruton could be brutal.

 

[Romulan]

I'd second MPSOX on his analysis.

I had serious doubts about FF at the last election but the alternatives were just not there. I suspect many people, myself included, voted in part based on the devil you know.

What we need are some good independents, enough perhaps to constitute a tactical voting block in the Dail.

 

[Purple]

Excellent post Mpsox. I bet most of those who will pick at your post will not be anywhere near as open about their own views.

 

[DonKing]

Excellent post Mpsox. I bet most of those who will pick at your post will not be anywhere near as open about their own views.

+1

Under no circumstances would I vote Labour or Sinn Fein. Can't stand varadkar or kenny. Dr.O'Reilly makes my skin curl as he was the one who negotiated the contract for consultants. Wouldn't be too impressed with the local FG candidtates. Can't see how FG can tackle the PS if they are in coalition with labour

So lets see who does that leave to vote for?

 

[Deiseblue]

Mpsox , hugely interesting and honest post
I must point out however that the labour party is not funded by Trade unions
Sure they make a donation but that donation is a mere drop in the ocean in terms of what is required to run a major political party.

 

[Romulan]

So, the key questions for me are?

1. Would I be happier voting for FF if they had a different leader - I do not rate BC.
2. Would I be more inclined to vote for FG if they had a different leader?

And in both cases, who?

 

[Caveat]

I must point out however that the labour party is not funded by Trade unions
Sure they make a donation but that donation is a mere drop in the ocean in terms of what is required to run a major political party.

Depends what you mean by 'a drop in the ocean'.

Either way do you honestly think Labour would risk offending the unions and potentially lose this contribution?

 

[z107]

Thanks for that post Mpsox - most enlightening. I find much of your analysis contradictory, but I too appreciate your honesty.

I also find it interesting that there are still no outright, 'I would vote for FF' posts.

 

[gunnerfitzy]

I had serious doubts about FF at the last election but the alternatives were just not there. I suspect many people, myself included, voted in part based on the devil you know.

You see, I could never understand this 'better the devil you know' reason for voting FF in the last election. For some strange reason in this country we seem to thing that keeping the corrupt, economy wrecking party in power is better than taking a chance on someone new. The phrase 'better the devil you know' is meant for a situation where given two or more options, it is more advantagous to go with the option that poor but familiar rather than risk an unknown. Why was that a good decision?

What we need are some good independents, enough perhaps to constitute a tactical voting block in the Dail.

The very very last thing we need is more independants. In fact lets get rid of the single transferable vote and get rid of some independants in the next election. In the past number of governments many have ended up siding with FF and are only worried about acheiving a disporportionate amount of funding and services for their own constituencies while supporting a government that they know have brought the country almost to its knees.

 

[Purple]

Thanks for that post Mpsox - most enlightening. I find much of your analysis contradictory, but I too appreciate your honesty.

What do you find contradictory?

I also find it interesting that there are still no outright, 'I would vote for FF' posts.

Only people who are blind ideologues will nail their colours to the mast of one party and vote for them no matter what. That used to be the case with FF and FG but it seems to be mainly a left wing thing these days; Shinners who are die-hard nationalists and Labour voters for whom socialist dogma is an article of faith.
An electorate who bases their voting choices on policy is a good thing.

 

[Bronte]

I also find it interesting that there are still no outright, 'I would vote for FF' posts.

I said both my parents would vote FF no matter what, and one sibling as well. From now to doomsday.

 

[Mpsox]

Mpsox , hugely interesting and honest post
I must point out however that the labour party is not funded by Trade unions
Sure they make a donation but that donation is a mere drop in the ocean in terms of what is required to run a major political party.

In 2007 the affiliation fee paid by trade unions to the Labour party was approx €60k. That would be seperate to the donations individual TDS received from trade unions + use of office space in some cases which would be governed by the rules on donations to politicians. You are correct in saying that it is a mere drop in the ocean (about 2.5% of a drop to be exact)

However, in the same way we criticise (and rightly so I might add) FF for kow-towing to vested interest groups, in the interest of fairness, I believe we should also recognise trade unions as a vested interest group when it comes to the Labour Party

Bear in mind as well that the trade union influence goes further then pure financial donations. Unions also have a vote at Party conferenaces via their ability to elect delegates to it

 

[Sunny]

Personally I would rather he put the citizens of Ireland first, not the foreign investors.

I don't think you understand why the foreign investors really like him.

Hint: It has nothing to do with him doing what's best for Ireland.

Here is a reality check for you. Foreign investors are what is keeping this Country going so what is best for them is best for Ireland and its citizens. We are running a massive budget deficit. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for everyday health services, education, salaries etc?

The ECB are throwing money at the banks for funding. They are not throwing money at the Irish Government to fund the deficit. It is the bondholders who are paying our bills. As I say, look at Greece if you want to see the consequences of not having International Credibility. Richard Bruton is a very capable person as well but is dragged down by the his party. He seems to have lost his mojo since George Lee (big disappointment) was catapulted in.

 

[Firefly]

foreign investors is what is keeping this country going so what is best for them is best for ireland and its citizens. We are running a massive budget deficit. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for everyday health services, education, salaries etc?

The ecb are throwing money at the banks for funding. They are not throwing money at the irish government to fund the deficit. It the bondholders who are paying our bills. As i say, look at greece if you want to see the consequences of not having international credibility.

+1

 

[DerKaiser]

Here is a reality check for you. Foreign investors is what is keeping this Country going so what is best for them is best for Ireland and its citizens. We are running a massive budget deficit. Where do you think the money comes from to pay for everyday health services, education, salaries etc?

The ECB are throwing money at the banks for funding. They are not throwing money at the Irish Government to fund the deficit. It the bondholders who are paying our bills. As I say, look at Greece if you want to see the consequences of not having International Credibility. Richard Bruton is a very capable person as well but is dragged down by the his party. He seems to have lost his mojo since George Lee (big disappointment) was catapulted in.

Good points.

I don't know why George Lee joined FG rather than labour. From what I can make out he is a socialist.

Did anyone notice Leo Varadker calling for a guarantee of no further cuts in PS pay? Not a great point from which to start negotiation on reform I would have thought. He could have at least set out a stall of promising no cuts provided certain reform targets were met

 

[Complainer]

Either way do you honestly think Labour would risk offending the unions and potentially lose this contribution?

No - Labour would never risk any offence to the unions
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