Welfare and College fees

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dmos87

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Letting off Steam in its finest form :)

Visited a friend of mine recently. She has had a baby in the last year, is on SW as is her partner who is classified as a dependant.

Friend informs me their rent is 800 per month, but they receive 760 pm Rent Allowance. So she pays a grand total of 40 euros a month.

At the time of the visit, I was on a high note as I had just applied and paid for college starting this September. College will be by night for 1st year. Fees are expensive, not to mention the 2 years fulltime that need to follow.

Said friend says "Thats gas! I'm back to college too in September. Hairdressing - all my fees are covered by the government and all my course materials - hairdryers, scissors, etc. - are free. Creche is free for me too! And I still get my dole".

Now I love my friend to bits - we've been friends since we were 10 years old and she always worked until she went travelling, but I actually felt so unbelieveably ANGRY. But she is only working the system this country has so foolishly put in place. They actually receive more money now sitting at home with their baby than they do if one or both of them worked in minimum wage jobs. So they have stopped looking for work altogether and I don't blame them for doing so.

How sickening is it for the people who word hard slogging it out to get paid every week putting as much aside as possible for a future. What is the point??? Why aren't we all sitting at home on our backsides milking the system???
 
it's true. they get grants, keep their dole and in the past also got paid additional grants without affecting their dole. personally, i didn't get a grant and i worked part-time while i was at college. now im still working and even more disgusted at how much the great unwashed end up with for being irresponsible and not being able to support their own families without resorting to welfare. i wish the government would tax people less and reduce social welfare to food stamps.
 
Discourse

tenchi-fan said:
it's true. they get grants, keep their dole and in the past also got paid additional grants without affecting their dole. personally, i didn't get a grant and i worked part-time while i was at college. now im still working and even more disgusted at how much the great unwashed end up with for being irresponsible and not being able to support their own families without resorting to welfare. i wish the government would tax people less and reduce social welfare to food stamps.
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The circumstance where welfare claimants can go to university and retain their social welfare payments is part of a labour market activation measure actively being pursued by the Department and FAS. Its a statutory scheme - and I do know that the Department would most welcome your review and analysis of its labour market activitation measures and your findings and proposals on how you can improve it, given there are 430,000 persons currently on the live register.

Who exactly do you regard "as the great unwashed":confused:. Are there particular groups of people who you would consider to be the great unwashed - Maybe lone parents who through no fault find themselves parenting alone due to a multitude of reasons. Maybe the long-term unemployed who are so depressed with being economically inactive that they dont have the mental will or resources to be in a position to look for employment - or is is it the most vulnerable like the sick, disabled, carers, older persons, or the many people who receive double payments officially through government run schemes? Indeed maybe a better categorisation would be the distinction between the deserving ie. contributory systems and the non-deserving ie. assistance payments.

In fact there is one discourse in social policy called MUD - that meaning the moral underclass discourse:).

It be interesting to hear what kind of sector that you are employed in. In my profession that kind of term would be deemed wholly unprofessional - whereas others would say it just epitomizes one's total ignorance and a lack of understanding and empathy for others who may be less fortunate than yourself:rolleyes:!

I do agree that there are some claimants who abuse the system. However, these schemes are in operation and they are put in place by the Department who should have aggressive fraud control measures. While people need to take personal responsibility, there are circumstances and times in peoples lives where people may not have those resources to help themselves and that's were the welfare state comes in by providing those temporary supports. If these systems are being abused there is an onus on the Department to have stringent fraud control measures and to cut all the loopholes.

I do wonder to what extent public administration regularly reviews and updates public administration schemes?

It comes down to policy and in relation to policy the buck lies with these highly paid department officials, their advisors and the various politicians who devise these schemes.
 
dmos87; perhaps you can answer the question you put to others? ie; why are you not sitting at home on your backside milking the system?

You might find that the answer you give ,is the reason why most people dont do just that, that it is usually peoples circumstances,lack of education etc,that leads to them doing just that.

It would appear that she has some get up and go,when she is in fact trying to improve her circumstances by doing a full time course,which will lead to a qualification and as you said she always worked.

I cant imagine it as doing nothing,when you have to look after a baby,and when she is doing the course,she will have to work a day a week on top of study,attending college each day,and then minding a baby.

I say fair play to her,I say fair play to us for giving people less fortunate than us the opportunity to improve their lives.

Naturally there will always be those who milk the system,but we need to protect those who are genuinely seeking to improve their circumstances.
 
It certainly is a very generous scheme from the sound of it. Whether it has sufficient merit would depend on the eventual outcome.

As things are, your friend is operating under a glass ceiling beyond which she would find it almost impossible to progress in her current circmstances. I accept that her circusmatances are currently better than someone on the dole but, without some help, she has no chance of progressing.

If, as a consequence of her education, she has the opportunity of returning to the workforce with a reasonably well-paid job that allows her to pay tax back into the system, then the State can be said to have a positive return on its initial invetsment.

However, I'd agree that there should be some means of determining whether schemes of this nature achieve their ultimate objectives.
 
I suppose I'm not sitting at home milking the system in the same way because I don't want to be dependant on the system - I want to work and do my best to buy my own home off the bat. I want a good standard of life and I know that working hard will help me achieve it. Part of it is pride and part is ambition.

What annoyed me was that I had just deposited almost 2 months wages for my college fees for 6 months, only to be told she didnt have to pay anything, not even course materials. It really is sickening because I think of how hard I worked to put that money aside, the time I spent away from my family and friends working 3 jobs to pay for it. I have to continue working these 3 jobs for as long as possible to save money to go to college. What has she sacrificed for the chance to go back?

The system is willing to help those who need it yet offer no aid to those just above the threshold to qualify for assistance.
 
Hi there,

Here is the thing, if people are not encouraged to educate themselves how will they ever get out of the poverty trap! Atleast your friend is studying and trying to get a qualification and potentially work.. Mr Bear and I have always paid our own way, when I returned back to collage as a mature student I worked part time instead of going on the dole for 6 months! I know plenty who laughed at me for doing the same (including my SIL - but thats another story!) ..

It was my choice to educate myself this way, as it is yours. If there are grants for those who are unemployed available I would have no issue with someone who needs them using the grants..

Its funny how life can be, we never know - we may need these grants ourselves some day!
 
pinkyBear said:
It was my choice to educate myself this way, as it is yours. If there are grants for those who are unemployed available I would have no issue with someone who needs them using the grants..

Its funny how life can be, we never know - we may need these grants ourselves some day!
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thats very true!
 
I am lucky enough to have a job.

I don't like the job but its a job.

I would like to do a part time course but zero support is available for part time study.

Crazy.
 
Thats true - we might need it someday. I don't begrudge her for wanting to better herself, I'm really delighted for her that its all working out. She said to me before that she didn't want her daughter growing up in a bad situation so this is her way out.

Its just horribly annoying!! :p
 
Dole should be dependent on income, like it is in France and Germany. Work should be rewarded in any society which regards itself as progressive.
 
cork said:
I am lucky enough to have a job.

I don't like the job but its a job.

I would like to do a part time course but zero support is available for part time study.

Crazy.
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No it isn't. You have a job and the option to fund your study yourself (and claim tax-relief on the fees). if you're not willing to invest in your own development, why should the State be expected to?
 
My sister milked the system herself years ago. I remember well her being left as single parent bringing up two young kids on her own, getting all this benefit and paid, yes paid buy the state to go back to education. And there's me having to work all hours and do other qualification I had to shell out for myself.

I was furious, she should just get a job and not be a scrounger. So what does she do? Yeah, that's right, the milking, workshy, fraudulent "lone parent" (we all know what that really means eh?) not only goes and does a diploma, but then goes and gets a job where she then goes and does a degree. I couldn't believe the cheek, she's no right getting a job on the back to my tax money paying for her education. Oh and then she goes and gets even better jobs over the years because of this "assistance and leg up". Scrounging I say.

Oh yeah, my sister points out that with her new comfortable existence and wage, she's more than paid back the leg up she got in taxes and all that.

Lone parent scroungers, no better than those illegal immigrants who're taking our jobs, our women and stabbing each other. Get them out the house and get them building roads or clearing litter, that's what I say.
 
Latrade said:
Lone parent scroungers, no better than those illegal immigrants who're taking our jobs, our women and stabbing each other. Get them out the house and get them building roads or clearing litter, that's what I say.
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Well said! And those lazy public sector workers as well.
 
I think the issue with the person referred to in the OPs post isnt whether or not taxpayers money should used to fund their education so they can get back into the workforce.

The real issue is that the system encouraged a young couple who are well able to work to go onto SW in the first place. The system should never allow this to happen.

So we have a situation whereby taxpayers money is used to encourage people to drop out of the workforce and, once they have, even more taxpayers money is used to encourage them to get back into the workforce. Madness and a waste of money. Would have been better all round if they'd never left the workforce.
 
Sunny said:
Well said! And those lazy public sector workers as well.
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Don't get me started on those Communists.

csirl said:
The real issue is that the system encouraged a young couple who are well able to work to go onto SW in the first place. The system should never allow this to happen.
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No it isn't right, but we have to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

But let's just say for example that her friend does well within the training and goes on to employment or even starts her own business. How long before we get the money back in taxes and increased disposable income? Wasn't it worth it then? Say the hypothetical business does well and she's able to create just one job, isn't it worth it then?

Loss leader or whatever you want to call it. I'm sure there are actual examples of people out there milking the system. In fact I have one who's a friend. For the last two years he's taken every FAS course going because he gets money to do them. The funniest side was his complaining without even the smallest hint of irony at what he described as the same faces or "scroungers" (as he called them) that he sees on each of the courses he does.

When asked for specifics, out of a class of 20 the same faces (including himself) account for 5 or 6. The rest are people genuinely trying to get back to work.

It's a pity that there are people of this mentality who do play the system, but for me it would be a greater pity to stop a system that helps people in genuine need back into education and back into work.

As an aside, since my sister did her time of scrounging, she's employed and taken on 10 new staff. She also takes on part time and people for work experience who are also milking the system just like she did.

She's now able to have helped her kids get the education they deserved and both look like sure fire entrants to good colleges (in fact my niece is being tapped up by several of the big international ones). That's a bit of bragging, but it's also a fact that the programme helped her break the poverty trap not just for herself but her kids. In a few years, the kids will be entering the workforce (touch wood) with good qualifications, hopefully good wages and the cycle and trap has been broken completely.

I dunno, makes you think sometimes.
 
There are probably a few reasons for the gov to introduce these schemes (such as to reduce the official unemployment figures etc). The key thing for me though is that many of these skills will lead to lower-paid type jobs which are currently outside the tax net, so the money spent may never be "repaid" as such.
 
You know, I never stopped to think of the possibility of her opening a business, employing other people... it does make sense that the money spent educating does get given back over time to the government and might just create jobs too.

Looking at it from this approach I'm much less bitter about it now. And (heaven forbid) I might need this myself sooner or later.
 
cork said:
I would like to do a part time course but zero support is available for part time study.
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I thought you worked in a local authority - no? Don't these generally have fairly generous schemes for supporting staff to get extra qualifications?
 
I can see where people are coming from but, if the course wasn't paid for she wouldn't do it and would be dependent on social welfare payments forever. At least, this way, she is upskilling and has a better chance of getting a job in the future.
 
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