"We must dismantle our culture of dependency"

[Brendan Burgess]

Here is an article I had in the Sunday Independent yesterday:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/c...antle-our-culture-of-dependency-34963409.html

We need to dismantle our culture of dependency
In Ireland 77pc of working households are funding the other 23pc - that's twice the average of other EU countries

The Irish economy is growing rapidly. There will be real growth of around 5pc this year. Food, pharmaceutical and IT exports are booming. We are getting massive corporation tax payments from US multinationals. Our demographics are very favourable - we have relatively fewer dependant older people than other EU countries have. Unemployment has fallen to a little below the average EU levels. The Government can borrow money at 0.4pc.


So why are you struggling so hard? Why do you feel so insecure about your future and the future of your children?

You put the head down at college and got a good degree. You did some years of poorly paid training afterwards. You made the financial sacrifices, you worked hard at your career and now you have a decent salary. You should be comfortably off, but you are not. You are paying relatively high income tax, PRSI and USC, not to mention Local Property Tax and water charges. If you have a non-tracker mortgage, you are paying interest rates which are twice what they are in the rest of the Eurozone. You have always paid for your own health insurance, but it has become increasingly expensive, while at the same time, the tax relief has been greatly reduced. You have never had a motor insurance claim, but this year your premium is 35pc higher than last year. You thought you had a good pension, but it turns out that there is a big hole in the pension fund.

And it's probably going to be worse for your children. They are in their late 20s and there is no sign of them flying the nest any time soon, as they simply can't afford it. You made financial sacrifices to get them a good education, and now they have reasonable jobs, but they can't afford to rent anywhere decent, and it's very difficult for them to save up the deposit to buy a house.

It shouldn't be like this. People who have studied and worked hard who now have decent jobs should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labour. They should be looking forward to good pensions on retirement and they should be able to pay for private health care without being made to feel guilty about it. If they choose to do so, they should be in a position to help their kids get on the housing ladder.

So what has gone wrong? Why is there such an imbalance in Irish society and what, if anything, can be done about it?

There is one outstanding statistic about Irish society which is very rarely reported.

Despite having average levels of unemployment, we have the highest percentage of jobless families in the original EU-15 countries, which includes Greece, Spain and Portugal. But it's not just a little more than average, it's twice the average. The average is 11pc but in Ireland, it's 23pc. The next closest to us is the UK at 13pc.

So whereas in other EU countries, 89pc of households work and fund the 11pc who don't work, in Ireland, 77pc of working households are funding the other 23pc who don't work.

Why do we have 23pc jobless families, when our convenience stores, our restaurants and our hospitals are staffed by non-nationals? Why are the unemployed Irish not bothering with these jobs? Is it because compared to other EU countries, the gap between social welfare and benefits and low paid jobs is very low. It just does not pay for someone with children to work in a low paid job in Ireland.

But this generous social welfare system is not good for the recipients. They have become dependent on the state for their income, their housing and their health services. And the state is not good at providing these things. It would be much better for everyone if social welfare rates and benefits were cut back to the average rates in other EU countries. People would be encouraged to work and provide for themselves rather than become dependent on the state for everything for the whole of their lives.

Social housing is a very good example of how the system is so dysfunctional and doesn't really help anyone. Because of the high level of jobless families, there is a huge demand for social housing, at a level which the state can't provide. But there is competition between social housing and private housing. For example, there is a campaign underway to get NAMA and the Government to build 3,000 social housing units on the Glass Bottle site in Ringsend. But it would be much better if 3,000 private housing units were built there for people who are working and prepared to rent or buy their accommodation with their own money.

If you are from Ringsend and you have a job, you have almost no chance of being able to afford to buy or rent anywhere close to your family home. You will probably buy or rent in Tallaght or Naas. But if you are unemployed and entitled to social housing, you will refuse a house in Tallaght or Naas, and only accept a house close to where you were born.

If we want to create a fairer society and a better society for everyone, we need to dismantle our dependency culture. Cutting welfare and benefits for those who are well able to work, would benefit everyone in the long run.

Brendan Burgess is founder of the consumer forum askaboutmoney.com. His views are his own.

 

[Purple]

I watched the Film Suffragette yesterday. It really highlights how poor people struggled and how utterly appalling the treatment of women was in the so-called developed world.

My mother’s family was heavily involved in the Irish Suffragette movement and the struggle for independence. They were also involved in setting up the Trade Union movement here.


They worked, and in some cases they died, for freedom and self determination and for the rights for working people which are now enshrined in our legislation. They and many people like them worked hard all their lives. They never asked for or wanted a hand out or for anyone else to pay them to do nothing. As my great aunt put it when she was in her 90’s (and I’m paraphrasing), they spent their lives fighting to ensure rich people didn’t live off the work of poor people, how could they support those who didn’t want to work living off working people as it amounts to the same thing.

They fought for equality of opportunity. They would be appalled by how things have turned out. The irony that many people who consider themselves Republican and the Party which brands itself as Republican are betraying the founders of this country would not be lost on them. We all have a duty as citizens to work as hard as we can and contribute to society. If you choose to not work because you can have the same lifestyle on benefits then you are betraying those who came before you and those you are living off. Morally it is no different to deciding to live off the proceeds of crime.


Our dependency culture is not just the result of our welfare rates, although that’s a very large part of it, but rather it is the result of the lack of ethical standards and social responsibility by those who choose to adopt a parasitical lifestyle. They are betraying their fellow citizens and those who fought and died for their freedom from oppression.

 

[Gerard123]

Superb article.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Our dependency culture is not just the result of our welfare rates, although that’s a very large part of it, but rather it is the result of the lack of ethical standards and social responsibility by those who choose to adopt a parasitical lifestyle.

Hi Purple

I am not so sure about a lack of ethical standards.

Frankly, if I faced the following choice:

Don't work: Get social housing in Dublin city, medical card , no Local Property Tax, and a decent weekly cash income
or
Work for €25,000 a year: Rent a house miles away, no medical card, pay LPT, and pay for the long commute to work

I wouldn't be worried about the ethics or social responsibility.

We have designed a system where it makes no sense for people to work. We can't describe them as having a lack of ethical standards for not working.

Brendan

 

[Purple]

We have designed a system where it makes no sense for people to work. We can't describe them as having a lack of ethical standards for not working.


Brendan

I disagree. I can decide to sell drugs or engage in insurance fraud and make more money than I would working. That higher income wouldn’t excuse my actions. I see no difference when it comes to taking hand-out’s from your neighbours when you are in a position to fend for yourself, even if those hand-out’s amount to more than you could earn.

 

[Purple]

Purple are you trolling? You see no difference between drug dealing and availing of SW benefits that have been approved by Dail Eireann?!

No, I see no difference between social welfare fraud (not really being available for work) and insurance fraud.
If you decide not to take a job because you are better off on welfare then you are pretending to be available for work, i.e. lying about being available for work. That's fraud in my book.
I pay higher insurance because people choose to make bogus insurance claims. I pay higher taxes because people choose not to work. The net result is the same.

Availing of SW benefits legally and truthfully is not the same thing as the above.

 

[PGF2016]

Culture of dependency or culture of entitlement?

 

[Delboy]

Don't forget that a lot of those on Welfare will also be doing a bit of work on the side, enhancing their income and giving a better lifestyle than their neighbour who has a low paid job.

And factor into this also the power our Welfare State gives to Politicians. They literally have the power to buy votes through canvassing for constituents who are seeking Disability status, Welfare payments, Social housing etc. Either through actually getting results or being deemed to have gotten the result, they hold power over so many people.
So in campaigning against the high Welfare dependency rates, your are actually also fighting the political system in this country.

 

[Purple]

Very true Delboy

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Purple we are slipping into the realms of theology here. I agree that SW fraud is on a par with insurance fraud, and would require at least a Rosary in confession. Making oneself unavailable for work coz SW pays better mightn't even be a sin - 3 Hail Marys at most. But to compare these misdemeanours with drug peddling is borderline trolling IMHO.

 

[Purple]

Purple we are slipping into the realms of theology here. I agree that SW fraud is on a par with insurance fraud, and would require at least a Rosary in confession. Making oneself unavailable for work coz SW pays better mightn't even be a sin - 3 Hail Marys at most. But to compare these misdemeanours with drug peddling is borderline trolling IMHO.

Stealing a Euro isn't the same as stealing a million Euro but it's all stealing.

 

[odyssey06]

Maybe it's the equivalent of running a shebeen or selling some moonshine...

Either way, if we have people not working who could be, that's less money for police, hospitals, medicines, schools... Next time we hear someone complaining about lack of same in certain areas, remember that. We have too many benefits here dependent on not having a job.

 

[Purple]

In summary our welfare system allows people to start families and live economically independently of their broader family whereas in other European countries their welfare system does not. In other words our welfare system allows the choice to live independently and raise a family without ever working to be economically viable.

 

[TheBigShort]

I'm not sure where in the NESC report does it state that there is 23% jobless families? All I can see is a 23% VLWI which can include low paid work.
The report also identifies that 56% of adults in VLWI employment live with children compared to an EU average of 30% (page 8). This suggests to me that childcare facilities, costs and supports are superior to the supports available in Ireland which act as a barrier to entry into the workforce.
The most alarming stat is (page 7, fig 3.3) the high level of households with 'home duties' and with 'ill/disabilities' compared to the rest of the EU. Surely, these factors act as major impediments to returning to full employment?

The article, as published in the Independent, also indicates a basic misunderstanding of the concept of 'household'.
The article states ''Why do we have 23pc jobless families, when our convenience stores, our restaurants and our hospitals are staffed by non-nationals? Why are the unemployed Irish not bothering with these jobs?"

I'm not sure where in the NESC report a distinction is made between Irish workers and non-national workers? Don't foreign national workers make up households too? Don't foreign nationals who reside permanently here also have children, with childcare costs?

 

[TheBigShort]

Paying OPFP encourages lone parenthood and leads to more people in VLWI households. Mothers and children suffer as a result.

This is a wild assumption. OPFP no more encourages lone parenthood than living in a VLWI household that causes mothers and children to suffer discourages it.
The implied notion here is that a lot of single women cannot distinguish between the benefits and pitfalls of a life on welfare dependency and a life of financial independence.
That is ridiculous.

The reality is, is that too high of a proportion of employment opportunities in this country are too low paid.

The article in Irish Independent admits "It just does not pay for someone with children to work in a low paid job in Ireland." Yet unfortunately goes on to propose a resolution to this problem of cutting welfare benefits. I fail to see how cutting welfare benefits will make childcare anymore affordable for low paid work? It will not.
I would propose however, that rather target the one parent or child benefit, that childcare employers are offered subsidy in some form. For instance, if the childcare provider keeps costs below a set amount, then the state can subside the employer. Thereby, making childcare more affordable and facilitating the return to employment.

 

[Purple]

The implied notion here is that a lot of single women cannot distinguish between the benefits and pitfalls of a life on welfare dependency and a life of financial independence.

That is ridiculous.

Welfare can provide a life of financial independence. That is ridiculous.

The reality is, is that too high of a proportion of employment opportunities in this country are too low paid.

The reality is that too high a proportion of employment seekers in this country are too low skilled. Pay is linked to economic value. If you have no skills you have little economic value. If you want to be paid more become skilled (note: skilled and educated are not the same thing but education is a good starting point).

The article in Irish Independent admits "It just does not pay for someone with children to work in a low paid job in Ireland." Yet unfortunately goes on to propose a resolution to this problem of cutting welfare benefits. I fail to see how cutting welfare benefits will make childcare anymore affordable for low paid work? It will not.

I would propose however, that rather target the one parent or child benefit, that childcare employers are offered subsidy in some form. For instance, if the childcare provider keeps costs below a set amount, then the state can subside the employer. Thereby, making childcare more affordable and facilitating the return to employment.

So the people who pay for everything (the top 30% of earners) should pay even more? That hardly seems fair when the they are paying 52% on earnings over €42,800 and 23% VAT on what’s left when they spend it, a total of 63% tax on earnings by the time you spend it. Are you suggesting that people should work more than 3 days a week for free (i.e. for the tax man)?

 

[TheBigShort]

Welfare can provide a life of financial independence. That is ridiculous.





The reality is that too high a proportion of employment seekers in this country are too low skilled. Pay is liked to economic value. If you have no skills you have little economic value. If you want to be paid more become skilled (note: skilled and educated are not the same thing but education is a good starting point).


So the people who pay for everything (the top 30% of earners) should pay even more? That hardly seems fair when the they are paying 52% on earnings over €42,800 and 23% VAT on what’s left when they spend it, a total of 63% tax on earnings by the time you spend it. Are you suggesting that people should work more than 3 days a week for free (i.e. for the tax man)?

Its the same old defunct analysis that is regurgitated time and time again. The original article takes a stat (23% VLWI) and calls it something else (jobless households, which peaked at 16% in 2012), then it tries to imply that the NESC report is refering to Irish unemployed as opposed to all nationalities.
Then out trots the 'people who pay for everything', mantra. The implied assumption that educated and skilled workers do not rely on welfare, pay everything, and only unskilled uneducated are costing the taxpayer.
There are, and were, plenty of educated and skilled workers on welfare at the height of the crash. Plenty of skilled and educated workers working in banking and finance, on large salaries, whose ineptitude was the equivalent of the entire McDonalds, Supermacs, Burger King etc giving all their customers a serious dose of food posioning at the exact same time.

Nobody pays a rate of tax on any level of income that is higher than anyone elses. The first €20,000 is tax free (for everyone), then next tranche is at 20% (for everyone) and then its 41% (for everyone).
Comparing the tax liability of someone who has an income of €80,000 to someone on €20,000 is like comparing a bike race between two cyclists, only not accounting for the point that one cyclists has no wheels on the bike.

So, open your mind to alternatives, dont be so formulated in spouting the same guff that has no basis in reality.

 

[odyssey06]

Then out trots the 'people who pay for everything', mantra. The implied assumption that educated and skilled workers do not rely on welfare, pay everything, and only unskilled uneducated are costing the taxpayer.

Who are the people who pay for everything? It's certainly not someone on welfare. It would be great if we could get more of them off welfare, to help shoulder the burden. That's not going to happen with the level of benefits being given out now to people who aren't working, which creates the culture of dependency - I haven't heard anything in this thread to contradict the central point.
But, is the answer reducing the benefits or somehow maintaining them or dispersing them amongst the general workforce?
In the long run I think a straight reduction would work as it would get people into the workforce, who over time have opportunities they would never have caught in a poverty trap.
In the short term, and to make things politically palatable, I think we need to look at making the benefits (eg medical card) conditional on working, rather than as now, on not working. There will be costs to this, but this is balanced against the savings to this as instead of relying on the taxpayer to 100% fund things, there will be a mix between taxpayer and employer.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

The "problem" is that social welfare provides a standard of living that some people aspire to. Instead of being what it should be, i.e. a support to keep vulnerable people housed and fed at the most basic level, it allows people to live comfortably. That is wrong.

 

[gar32]

John was a Painter and got let go. He is unmarried with 3 kids and had a mortgage before he became unemployed. He would get €188 a week not working. His Partner also gets €188 as she does not work. Children allowance at €105 a week child benefit. Thats €481 a week tax free. €25 k a year. 2 Painting nixers a month say at €300 each on average. Thats around 32K a year.

http://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Painter/Hourly_Rate Max a painter makes in full time work is €40k before tax.

John is not going to work 40hrs a week for a little more the a few hours a month.

How can Ireland chance this without putting the children in a poverty trap?

Back to work allowance ?

Drop €188 by €1 a month until a job is found?

Retrain using Fas for a job that companies need?

Pay working people better so people want to work?

Minimum income for all in the country any work is extra earnings?

With a 5 year turn around in the Dail they don't have the will to think 10 years from now. it will take forward planing and thinking that I feel is beyond the system we have.

Out of the box thing any body ???