Water divining: Is there any evidence that it works?

[Bluebells]

Hi ClubMan,
had a look at your ideomotor link. It explains alot of things. But the thing is, my hands don't move, its my little bit of wire that moves. My elbows are tight against my sides and I hold some rounded wire loosely in my hands. I point the V at the ground and the wire will rise until it is pointing upwards. I try to force the wire down, it won't go. I take a few steps away, and the wire drops to the ground.
Whether its my mind that does it ( or Brendans ! ), I neither know nor care. I'm only saying what happens.
In fact, I'd love it if it is my mind that causes this, because there are alot of things I'd like to make happen. Is it really that simple?
( Sorry if the last bit sounds sarcastic, it is not meant to be)

 

[Bluebells]

Apology accepted. Thanx ajapale

 

[ClubMan]

Good to hear. Water divining may be hocus-pocus but it's not the prevalent one, there aren't any shrines to it and nobody to seems to be killing anyone over it. Or if they are, they're keeping it quiet.

Fair point but, in my opinion, any form of hocus pocus contributes towards a general dumbing down and erosion of a logical/scientific approach to matters so it's always good to challenge it.

But is somebody somewhere making money from it ?

Good point!

had a look at your ideomotor link. It explains alot of things. But the thing is, my hands don't move, its my little bit of wire that moves. My elbows are tight against my sides and I hold some rounded wire loosely in my hands. I point the V at the ground and the wire will rise until it is pointing upwards. I try to force the wire down, it won't go. I take a few steps away, and the wire drops to the ground.

That's the point - people may not be aware of it and convinced that something else causes it but ultimately it is they (probably through involuntary and un/sub-conscious movements of which they are not really aware) who are they cause.

Whether its my mind that does it ( or Brendans ! ), I neither know nor care. I'm only saying what happens.
In fact, I'd love it if it is my mind that causes this, because there are alot of things I'd like to make happen. Is it really that simple?

No - it's even simpler. Involuntary and un/sub-conscious movements by your body most likely causes the movement of the dowsing device.

 

[woods]

Why not use a compass? Why does magnetism matter to you anyway?

You mean more hocus pocus?

http://www.amazon.com/Mumbo-jumbo-Conquered-World-Francis-Wheen/dp/158648348X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1682468-4762324?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183321600&sr=8-1 (This one) maybe?

You are speaking to a devout agnostic so you can save the sarcasm on the religion.
It is a scientific fact that magnetism effects the body and I take far too much care of this particular body to allow a little thing like that to damage it.
Where magnetic lines cross, a magnetic field is created that has been known to cause serious health effects. A little thing like moving your bed to the other side of the room can make a big difference to your health.
Magnetism can account for a lot of other things such as hauntings. If a magnetic field is created in a room a normally sensible person can become convinced that there is a presence other than themself in the room. Maybe I can harness that and set up a haunted bed and breakfast.

On a more serious note, this is something that I am interested in investigating so if someone knows of any person who does it I would be interested in hiring them and I do not care who thinks that I am nuts for doing so.

 

[ClubMan]

You are speaking to a devout agnostic so you can save the sarcasm on the religion.

Eh?!? What sarcasm on religion?

It is a scientific fact that magnetism effects the body and I take far too much care of this particular body to allow a little thing like that to damage it.
Where magnetic lines cross, a magnetic field is created that has been known to cause serious health effects. A little thing like moving your bed to the other side of the room can make a big difference to your health. Magnetism can account for a lot of other things such as hauntings. If a magnetic field is created in a room a normally sensible person can become convinced that there is a presence other than themself in the room. Maybe I can harness that and set up a haunted bed and breakfast.

Can you link to some objective scientific evidence about this please?

On a more serious note, this is something that I am interested in investigating so if someone knows of any person who does it I would be interested in hiring them and I do not care who thinks that I am nuts for doing so.

As I said - magnetism can be detected using a compass.

 

[woods]

Eh?!? What sarcasm on religion?

Can you link to some objective scientific evidence about this please?

Actually I was hoping that I could just be lazy and you could find it for me. I love the way you do that.

 

[ClubMan]

Actually I was hoping that I could just be lazy and you could find it for me. I love the way you do that.

Even I cannot find something that I never posted (sarcasm on religion in this thread).

And with reference to evidence about the alleged magnetic phenomena that you mention above are you saying that this is stuff that you just believe but cannot actually provide any evidence for?

 

[anois]

Anybody here know much about geopathic stress. Some people get their sites checked for this before they build. I know lots of people who got their homes checked and most of them got some kind of pumps installed.

 

[ClubMan]

More pseudoscience/quackery with no scientific/objective evidence to back up claims of its existence or impact - just Google or read about it...

 

[Satanta]

Presume all these scientific, rational and skeptical contributions are not from people whose sundays involve subscription to the primitive belief system that is so popular on the island...

You are speaking to a devout agnostic so you can save the sarcasm on the religion.

Just for clarity. I presume this is where that comment was directed. It seems to have gotten lost in some of the other issues and direct replies.

 

[Bluebells]

Perhaps we don't yet have the science to prove or disprove some of these things. Maybe in the future we will have ways to measure what we currently regard as hocus pocus.
Some folk medicines have now been discovered to have some basis in fact. The relevant example in this case concerns the use of magnets for the relief of pain. Our forebears had no way to test how or why this worked. I'm almost sure I read somewhere that a Boston (I think ) University had actually concluded that magnets can relieve pain. I am open to correction on this however.
Before modern veterinary science, farmers would hang the foot of an animal who had died of some type of disease, in their barn, to ward off bad luck. It was believed to work because the other animals would remain healthy.
They had no idea that some future scientist would discover and explain inoculation. The cattle would have been exposed to low doses of this highly contagious disease and built up a resistance. Those farmers believed in hocus pocus, that nowadays, we call science.
So maybe we should keep an open mind on some things that we don't understand?

 

[ClubMan]

Perhaps we don't yet have the science to prove or disprove some of these things. Maybe in the future we will have ways to measure what we currently regard as hocus pocus.

Of course - any scientist will always allow for that. Even if the probability is approaching zero . But based on current scientific/objective tests there is nothing substantive to support the efficacy of dowsing or the existence of geopathic stress.

Some folk medicines have now been discovered to have some basis in fact.

Many "folk" medicines are based on the use of substances with active ingredients (e.g. herbs) which have efficacy in certain situations of for certain conditions (and have been tested and verified under in clinical tests). Nothing unusual in that.

The relevant example in this case concerns the use of magnets for the relief of pain. Our forebears had no way to test how or why this worked. I'm almost sure I read somewhere that a Boston (I think ) University had actually concluded that magnets can relieve pain. I am open to correction on this however.

OK - I'm fed up searching for this stuff so I'll leave it to you to link to authoritative and accepted evidence that magnet therapy is effective for certain conditions. I can easily link to information that strongly suggests that it is not.

Before modern veterinary science, farmers would hang the foot of an animal who had died of some type of disease, in their barn, to ward off bad luck. It was believed to work because the other animals would remain healthy.They had no idea that some future scientist would discover and explain inoculation. The cattle would have been exposed to low doses of this highly contagious disease and built up a resistance. Those farmers believed in hocus pocus, that nowadays, we call science.
So maybe we should keep an open mind on some things that we don't understand?

As they say - we should keep an open mind. But not so much that our brains fall out. We should also test things to see what happens and not just assume that because something strange happens then something strange (e.g. paranormal, mystical, something else that we cannot explain - "YET" etc.) must be going on.

The evidence supporting the efficacy of dowsing or geopathic stress is non existant. If clinical trials were done of the inadvertent innoculation of cattle then they may have pointed towards something interesting going on.

 

[z108]

The relevant example in this case concerns the use of magnets for the relief of pain.

A magnetic field is a scientifically observable and verifiable phenomenon with many applications in the world of electronic circuitry and electrical power. A force is felt on a charge in the field and this is covered by many laws which are the basis of modern engineering. It is not hocus pocus and it is not the supernatural.

Magnetic bracelets have long been used by people suffering from arthritis and the usefulness of this is another issue but in itself it does not prove dowsing.

 

[Vanilla]

We had a diviner in to tell us where to put our well. To be honest we didn't think much about it at the time. We contacted the company who were to drill for the well and they suggested a diviner, and arranged for him to come. I wasn't there but my husband was. He found the whole thing very amusing. The diviner was a tiny little old man and our site at the time was a sea of mud. My husband and the well man literally lifted the diviner around the site until he 'struck' water. I think he was paid the princely sum of €20 or €30. I have no idea whether it's all hocus pocus or not, I suspect it is. However the well driller wanted a diviner so we went along with it. Is there a more scientific method? Of course we now have a very healthy well with more water than we could possibly ever use so all's well that ends well.

 

[ClubMan]

Maybe there's simply a lot of water under your land? Based on the scientific tests that have been done diviners' results are generally within the margin of error of chance. As such the evidence certainly points to claims of being able to dowse water (or other things) being bunkum.

 

[ClubMan]

A magnetic field is a scientifically observable and verifiable phenomenon with many applications in the world of electronic circuitry and electrical power. A force is felt on a charge in the field and this is covered by many laws which are the basis of modern engineering. It is not hocus pocus and it is not the supernatural.

Just to clarify - obviously I never suggested that magnetic forces were hocus pocus or supernatural. Magnetic therapy and some claimed effects of magnetism on the body are another matter though...

 

[Vanilla]

Maybe there's simply a lot of water under your land? Based on the scientific tests that have been done diviners' results are generally within the margin of error of chance. As such the evidence certainly points to claims of being able to dowse water (or other things) being bunkum.

I'd say there is loads of water under there. For instance we have at least one natural spring elsewhere on the site. Or are the two linked? Haven't the foggiest. Anyway if they are Mr. Diviner could probably have pointed his twig anywhere and found water ( that might have sounded quite rude but was unintentional).

 

[galwaytt]

how about inserting a dose of pragmatism here?

Example: water diviner tells me that if I specify position I want the well dug in, I pay for every foot, at Eur 7.50 a foot - irrespective of finding water or not, good quality or bad.

If, however, he divines it, I pay nothing unless it's both found and of usable quality.

The well was 295 feet deep.

So, based on that, which option would you elect? All I know is that I've had water for 10 years, and it's perfect.......... I am of course, slightly out of pocket..........

 

[ClubMan]

No problem with that. My problem is with people who claim that dowsing actually works. If he strikes it lucky and gets paid fair enough.

 

[ajapale]

Do diviners proport to find the depth of the well as well as the presence of water?
Aslo do diviners proport to determine the quality of water (in terms of Iron, Manganese, Ph or Hardness)?
I know that the diviner with a well know driller in the South charges €60-€70 at the moment.
aj