Using Leap Card for combined Luas and train journey - how many taps?

[Itchy]

You even have to tap off when switching between Green and Red Luas lines.

The guidance does indeed say this but in reality you don't have to do this. If your tagged on, you're on with a valid 90 min ticket. I imagine that they state this in the guidance for the purposes of 1) data, they can get a clear idea of the nature of journeys and 2) they can keep the instructions for using the service as simple as possible, i.e. just tap on and off.

You don't tap off when alighting from a bus though.

Is this what you mean by ridiculous? This is for very good and sensible reasons that are obvious to everyone though, correct?

Or is it ridiculous to offer the short hop fare in addition to the universal fare?

Yet another inconsistency is when switching between Commuter Rail and DART (technically separate services so should do the tap-off-on thing when switching at Connolly.) Yet to do this, you'd have to exit through the card-operated barriers, turn right around, operate the barrier again and retrace your steps, switch platforms and get on the DART. Surely not. Again, there's no signage and the online guidance is inconsistent and unclear. How are infrequent users and tourists supposed to figure it out?

No sensible user of the service would consider taking that approach. They would apply their common sense and they would be right.

This is not an inconsistency because it is not required.

Here's the online guidance:

TFI Leap Card can be used on all DART & Commuter Rail services in the Greater Dublin Area (within the short-hop zone).

Using your TFI Leap Card on DART & Commuter Rail - Leap Card

TFI Leap Card can be used on all DART & Commuter Rail services in the Greater Dublin Area (within the short-hop zone). The TFI 90 Minute fare now applies journeys made on Dublin Bus, Luas and most DART, commuter rail (zones 1 to 4 in the Short Hop Zone) and Go-Ahead Ireland services in...

about.leapcard.ie

DART and Short Hop Zone includes all stations in the Dublin area from Kilcoole to Balbriggan, from Dublin City Centre stations to Kilcock and from Dublin Heuston to Sallins and Naas including all DART services.

DART and Short Hop Zone Fares

Check out our range of tickets and fares for DART and customers travelling in the short hop zone including fares for adult and family day tickets, adult and student weekly and monthly tickets and adult annual tickets.

www.irishrail.ie

What's unclear exactly?

 

[jdwex]

I heard that CIE let wimmin drive these days too...

The "they" pronoun has its uses

 

[jdwex]

Thanks. But it's a ridiculous system. And in my experience many drivers are cheesed off when you tag on with them rather than at the other scanner.

Very few people take the short fare, from what I see.

 

[Right Winger]

....
What's unclear exactly?

Seriously??

Consider the three different scenarios:

1. Transfer from Luas to Suburban rail at, eg, Broombridge. You have to tap-off and on again. It matters if you don't.

2. Transfer from Luas Green to Luas Red. You're supposed to tap-off and on again but it doesn't matter apparently whether you do or don't.

3. Transfer from Suburban Rail to Dart (eg Connolly.) Nobody's quite sure what you're supposed to do, but you say sensible users would just apply common sense and not tap-off and on again.

That's three very similar inter-service transfers with wildly differing tapping requirements at the point of change. How, for instance, is it obvious to the casual user that you need to tap-off then on again at Broombridge, but not at Connolly? Or that the Luas people don't care whether or not you do so going around the corner from Abbey Street to O'Connell Street?

 

[Itchy]

How, for instance, is it obvious to the casual user that you need to tap-off then on again at Broombridge, but not at Connolly?

Connolly has entrance barriers rather than platform scanners and the train/luas stops are entirely removed from each other, which i'm assuming is not the case at Broombridge. You literally couldn't make a stones of it at Connolly station unless you tried really hard.

That's three very similar inter-service transfers with wildly differing tapping requirements at the point of change.

They're not different, its the same requirement! Tap on and off, simples.

Transferring from Suburban Rail to Dart (eg Connolly.).

The walk from some platforms in Connolly can be what 400m. So your question is, how is it obvious to the casual user that you don't need to walk 400m from platform 7 to walk out of the barrier, do a 180 and walk back to the same platform to get on a DART? Again, it's blatantly obvious that such a requirement would be absurd. The other transfer stations are Tara St., Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, all of which have entrance barriers rather than platform scanners.

 

[Right Winger]

Connolly has entrance barriers rather than platform scanners and the train/luas stops are entirely removed from each other, which i'm assuming is not the case at Broombridge. You literally couldn't make a stones of it at Connolly station unless you tried really hard.

Yes, the Luas/train changeover is fine(ish.) It's the Suburban Rain / DART changeover that's problematic.

They're not different, its the same requirement! Tap on and off, simples.

No, no, no! It's a different requirement!
- Broombridge: adjacent platforms, tap-off then tap on again required.
- Connolly: adjacent platforms, no tap-off/on requirement.
How on earth is that "the same requirement?

The walk from some platforms in Connolly can be what 400m. So your question is, how is it obvious to the casual user that you don't need to walk 400m from platform 7 to walk out of the barrier, do a 180 and walk back to the same platform to get on a DART?

No, that's not my question. You're deliberately distorting what I wrote.

Again, it's blatantly obvious that such a requirement would be absurd.

Yes, we agree it's absurd. Problem is the written guidance directs you to do exactly this absurd operation! You are told that you must tap on and off for each leg of a multi-service journey. And, as you say, common sense says otherwise.

The other transfer stations are Tara St., Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, all of which have entrance barriers rather than platform scanners.

And Broombridge, which is different to all of those. My question remains: how is it obvious that the Broombridge and Connolly procedures are different, particularly when the guidance material suggests the requirement is the same.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

NTA are supposed to be awarding a tender for what they call next generation ticketing in the next few months, that will allow the use of debit and credit cards instead of Leap or cash but it is a massive project to role out.

Only in Ireland would this be considered a massive undertaking.

It is simply about updating an IT system and replacing a few thousand ticket reading machines.

The technology is on the shelf and in place in many other cities already. I've seen buskers who accept card payments!

 

[Itchy]

Yes, the Luas/train changeover is fine(ish.) It's the Suburban Rain / DART changeover that's problematic.


No, no, no! It's a different requirement!
- Broombridge: adjacent platforms, tap-off then tap on again required.
- Connolly: adjacent platforms, no tap-off/on requirement.
How on earth is that "the same requirement?

Is the confusion regarding multi service? The services are Luas/Irish Rail rather than Luas/Suburban Rail/DART/Inter City/Enterprise etc.

No, that's not my question. You're deliberately distorting what I wrote.

This is what you wrote?! What did I distort?

Yet another inconsistency is when switching between Commuter Rail and DART (technically separate services so should do the tap-off-on thing when switching at Connolly.) Yet to do this, you'd have to exit through the card-operated barriers, turn right around, operate the barrier again and retrace your steps, switch platforms and get on the DART. Surely not. Again, there's no signage and the online guidance is inconsistent and unclear. How are infrequent users and tourists supposed to figure it out?

In order to do what you wrote in the post above, requires an 800m round trip, which is absurd. And blindingly obviously not required.

Yes, we agree it's absurd. Problem is the written guidance directs you to do exactly this absurd operation! You are told that you must tap on and off for each leg of a multi-service journey. And, as you say, common sense says otherwise.

The online guidance, literally does not per post #21.

 

[AlbacoreA]

What they need is exit/entrance barriers at broombridge to divide rail from luas to make it consistent.

Seriously??

Consider the three different scenarios:

1. Transfer from Luas to Suburban rail at, eg, Broombridge. You have to tap-off and on again. It matters if you don't.

2. Transfer from Luas Green to Luas Red. You're supposed to tap-off and on again but it doesn't matter apparently whether you do or don't.

3. Transfer from Suburban Rail to Dart (eg Connolly.) Nobody's quite sure what you're supposed to do, but you say sensible users would just apply common sense and not tap-off and on again.

That's three very similar inter-service transfers with wildly differing tapping requirements at the point of change. How, for instance, is it obvious to the casual user that you need to tap-off then on again at Broombridge, but not at Connolly? Or that the Luas people don't care whether or not you do so going around the corner from Abbey Street to O'Connell Street?

Luas is tap on/off

All other rail you have to go through barriers so you are tagged when you enter and leave the system.

The only exception to this is broombridge. Where they should have barriers entering and leaving the rail.

 

[AlbacoreA]

Very few people take the short fare, from what I see.

I wonder is the complexity worth the small numbers.

 

[thedaddyman]

Only in Ireland would this be considered a massive undertaking.

It is simply about updating an IT system and replacing a few thousand ticket reading machines.

The technology is on the shelf and in place in many other cities already. I've seen buskers who accept card payments!

It's far more complex then that.

Firstly, every single bus in Dublin has to be wi-fi enabled. Thousands of devices across the network will need to be upgraded and changed and that is going to cost 10s of millions.

A credit or debit card transaction in itself is far too slow to allow speedy access on and off a bus or train station. Think how long it takes for a transaction to go through at a shop, now imagine that delay for every passenger trying to get through the gates at Heuston during rush hour. In London, TFL had to do a deal with all of the banks and the likes of Mastercard where the passenger is allowed through without that delay, the banks then have 15 mins to confirm or reject the transaction and if you were using a fraudulent card, you would tap out of the Tube station, be allowed out on grounds of health and safety and then the system blocks your credit/debit card from ever being used again. If the banks fail to confirm in time, they take the loss. From a technology and commercial perspective, that will take some working through

A complete new accounting model and back end model are needed and possibly a new or at very least, changed fare structure to encourage people to move away from Leap. Likelihood is that travelling by cash would be eliminated as well in this model. London are now phasing out day travel cards for example.

Dublin has an advantage in that it is a follower for this technology so if the NTA select the right vendor, with the right model it should by 80% "copy and paste" on what was done previously. However to give an example of the scale and cost of this, London (TFL) are tendering at the minute for a 12 year run contract for their ticketing systems with an expected price in excess of £1.5 billion.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

Firstly, every single bus in Dublin has to be wi-fi enabled. Thousands of devices across the network will need to be upgraded and changed and that is going to cost 10s of millions.

A credit or debit card transaction in itself is far too slow to allow speedy access on and off a bus or train station. Think how long it takes for a transaction to go through at a shop, now imagine that delay for every passenger trying to get through the gates at Heuston during rush hour. In London, TFL had to do a deal with all of the banks and the likes of Mastercard where the passenger is allowed through without that delay, the banks then have 15 mins to confirm or reject the transaction and if you were using a fraudulent card, you would tap out of the Tube station, be allowed out on grounds of health and safety and then the system blocks your credit/debit card from ever being used again. If the banks fail to confirm in time, they take the loss. From a technology and commercial perspective, that will take some working through

A complete new accounting model and back end model are needed

As I said: "It is simply about updating an IT system and replacing a few thousand ticket reading machines."

However to give an example of the scale and cost of this, London (TFL) are tendering at the minute for a 12 year run contract for their ticketing systems with an expected price in excess of £1.5 billion.

In the context of TFL's expected 30 billion passengers over 12 years. So about £0.05 per passenger.

Dublin has an advantage in that it is a follower for this technology

As I said "The technology is on the shelf and in place in many other cities already."

 

[Right Winger]

What they need is exit/entrance barriers at broombridge to divide rail from luas to make it consistent.



Luas is tap on/off

All other rail you have to go through barriers so you are tagged when you enter and leave the system.

The only exception to this is broombridge. Where they should have barriers entering and leaving the rail.

That would be crazy at Broombridge! You arrive at one side of the platform on the Luas, walk a few steps to the other side and get on the commuter rail. Why go to the trouble and expense of making the system less user-friendly?

 

[Right Winger]

Is the confusion regarding multi service? The services are Luas/Irish Rail rather than Luas/Suburban Rail/DART/Inter City/Enterprise etc.

No, no, no. According to TFI, as set out on leapcard.ie, the services are: ".....Dublin Bus, Luas and most DARTs, commuter rail* and Go-Ahead Ireland services in Dublin...."

Parsing the sentence, as per normal English language sentence construction, the individual services would be the ones separated by commas in the list. That's:
1. Dublin Bus
2. Luas and most Darts
3. Commuter Rail
4. Go Ahead Ireland
each of which TFI appear to see as a separate service.


TFI then explain how to use the Leap Card as follows:

Ok, I’m ready. How do I use my TFI Leap Card?​

We’ll keep this simple:

Train and Luas: touch ON AND touch OFF

Bus: touch ON at the start of your journey only, not off

Don’t forget to touch-on before starting your journey to make sure you have a valid ticket for that journey. Please remember to do this because if you don’t, you may be prosecuted for fare evasion. And always remember to touch-off at the end of your journey on Luas and DART/commuter rail too – there’s no need to touch off on the bus.

New TFI 90 Minute Fare (TFI 90)​

The TFI 90 Minute fare now applies to most journeys in the Dublin area. Go from A to B using Dublin Bus, Luas and most DARTs, commuter rail* and Go-Ahead Ireland services in Dublin. Simply touch-on at your first leg, change transport as often as you like for 90 minutes**

The TFI 90 Minute Fare is just €2.00 for adults, €1 for young adults and students and only 65 cent for children up to and including 18 years.

*In zones 1 to 4 in the Short Hop Zone

** Don’t forget to touch-on before starting each of your journeys when you transfer between services to make sure you have a valid ticket for that journey. Please remember to do this because if you don’t, you may be prosecuted for fare evasion. And always remember to touch-off at the end of your journey on Luas and DART/commuter rail too – there’s no need to touch off on the bus.


So, TFI gives a list of services, and then says: you must touch on before starting each of your journeys when you transfer between services. It groups together "Luas and most DART's" and separates them with a comma from "commuter rail."
That implies that you should touch on when switching from Luas to Commuter Rail, (ie Broombridge) or from commuter rail to DART (ie Connolly.) Obviously, and as we both realize, the requirement to do so at Connolly is absurd! So clearly the guidance is wrong. And if it's demonstrably and absurdly wrong for Connolly (and also Tara, Pearse and Docklands, btw) how is the user to know that it's actually correct for Broombridge?? That, in essence, is my question. How are you, particularly as an infrequent user, supposed to know you've got to do the tap-off/on thing at Broombridge but not at Connolly when the signage is non-existent and the website guidance is contradictory and inconsistent?

This is what you wrote?! What did I distort?

You're selective and out-of-context quote, separated from the rest of my question, was clear and obvious distortion.

In order to do what you wrote in the post above, requires an 800m round trip, which is absurd. And blindingly obviously not required.

Like I say, we both agree on that. But the TFI guidance implies the opposite.

The online guidance, literally does not per post #21.

As I have laboriously parsed and pointed out, it literally does.