Sinn Féin wants to stop exodus of semi-professional and accidental landlords

[Purple]

increased property taxes will mean increased costs in owning a house.

Yes, exactly. The cost of owning a house is spread out over the lifetime of the owner rather than just front end loaded.

This will have an impact on peoples ability to pay as per the banks. Thus, less people will qualify for a mortgage.

Thus house prices drop. Thus mortgages become smaller. The amount of money the average buyer can afford to finance determines the price of houses.

Thus less demand for property. Thus builders will stop building.

The demand will be the same.
Why would builders stop building? Don't tell me you believe the spin from Tom Parlon about how builders aren't making money.

If it costs a builder €300,000 in materials to build a house and the demand for the house is there at €250,000 but not €300,000, do you think:

a) the house won't get built
or
b) the house builder will pay out €300,000 in materials and labour etc to build the house and then sell it for €250,000?

Where did you get €300 for material and labour from? The cost of materials is around €45-€55 per square foot so well under €100k even for a large 4 bed home.

Labour is a little less. For a 1300sq/ft house labour and materials are still well under €150k, and that's using our current grossly inefficient construction methods which are extremely labour intensive and where 30% of all the materials that arrive on site end up in a landfill.

Increasing property taxes means increased costs in owning a house and reducing peoples ability to pay.

No, they mean lower property prices, more trading down, lower mortgages and a broader tax base.

 

[The Horseman]

The property tax itself would cause a devaluation in the property. That's a good thing. Property doesn't create wealth, in fact it just sucks capital away from the wealth creating parts of the economy.

Why? It's hardly going to add anything to the amount paid on the houses we actually need.

Why? One of the main problems we have is that land prices are way too high. A site value based property tax will depress the value of land. It will also provide more money to fund State home building programmes.

A decrease in property value is a bad idea. Have you forgotten the whole negative equity of the last bust. Property can create wealth if there was some joined up thinking. Property has a value and can be used as collateral against loans. I am aware of some landlords who use the rent received go into a pension via AVC's. They can't fund AVC's from their wages but use the rental income to fund pensions (in the long term less of a burden on the State when they come to retire as the income they receive in retirement will be subject to tax).

We need additional supply but also to better utilise the supply we have. How many people in State owned houses are paying a differential rent based on their income which takes no consideration of the size of the property. I don't have an issue with letting a widow or widower living in a three bed council house but basing rent on some arbituary calculation of just income is not fair. It takes no account whatsoever of the unused bedrooms. its akin to saying rent for a one bed should be the same as rent for a three bed just because a person's circumstances have changed (eg kids grow up and move out etc).

 

[Purple]

A decrease in property value is a bad idea.

You're an outlier on that one.

Have you forgotten the whole negative equity of the last bust.

No. High prices result in high loans and bubbles and negative equity when the wheels come off.

Property can create wealth if there was some joined up thinking.

Wealth is created through the voluntary exchange of goods and services between people. In the case of a country net wealth is created through the international trade (exchange) of goods and services. High property prices and high returns on property sucks money away from the wealth creating sectors of the economy and so is bad for net wealth creation. It also concentrates wealth in capital and away from labour which is bad for a meritorious society.

Property has a value and can be used as collateral against loans. I am aware of some landlords who use the rent received go into a pension via AVC's. They can't fund AVC's from their wages but use the rental income to fund pensions (in the long term less of a burden on the State when they come to retire as the income they receive in retirement will be subject to tax).

Yes, more concentration of wealth in Capital.

We need additional supply but also to better utilise the supply we have. How many people in State owned houses are paying a differential rent based on their income which takes no consideration of the size of the property. I don't have an issue with letting a widow or widower living in a three bed council house but basing rent on some arbituary calculation of just income is not fair. It takes no account whatsoever of the unused bedrooms. its akin to saying rent for a one bed should be the same as rent for a three bed just because a person's circumstances have changed (eg kids grow up and move out etc).

I agree with you but I do have a problem with letting a widow or widower live in a three bed council house. I think that the States assets should be used for the greatest social good. That means needs assessments every few years.
Of course the Shinners would like to see social housing for everyone, in some utopian socialist populist paradise.

 

[PebbleBeach2020]

The cost of materials is around €45-€55 per square foot so well under €100k even for a large 4 bed home.

Labour is a little less. For a 1300sq/ft house labour and materials are still well under €150k,

When last did you purchase materials? A 1300 sq ft hours well under 150k. You are so out of touch, it's funny.

 

[Purple]

When last did you purchase materials? A 1300 sq ft hours well under 150k. You are so out of touch, it's funny.

Here (A builder), and here (The Society of Chartered Surveyors, well known for their japing and tomfoolery).

 

[Leo]

When last did you purchase materials? A 1300 sq ft hours well under 150k. You are so out of touch, it's funny.

This article updated earlier this year suggests a 100sqm build is possible with materials costs below €60.

 

[Sarenco]

The landlord exodus appears to be accelerating.

Rise in number of termination notices received by RTB

The number of termination notices received by the Residential Tenancies Board in the first half of the year rose by 58%, compared with the latter half of 2021.

www.rte.ie

Sinn Fein's answer is to ban evictions.

 

[PebbleBeach2020]

SF's solution to everything seems to be that it should come from one side and one side only. There's two sides to everything and it requires action on all stateholders to solve issues/problems. Banning evictions won't solve anything. It will encourage or motivate new investment to stay away from the sector and do nothing to solve issues for the sector as a whole.

 

[jpd]

Banning evictions would just encourage renters to stop paying the rent - I mean why pay the rent, if there is no downside to not paying

 

[Dermot]

Successive Governments have made changes every 3 and 4 months to rules and regulations for landlords surrounding rental accommodation without addressing the small % of tenants who create issues.
There is competition among the "lefties" to make it more difficult and restrictive for landlords to remain in the market.
It is no wonder that small and medium size landlords are leaving the market.
It is next to impossible for a landlord to keep up with all the pro-tenant regulations mainly designed to protect poor-quality tenants. These types of regulations often have a negative impact on good tenants.

 

[Purple]

The landlord exodus appears to be accelerating.

Rise in number of termination notices received by RTB

The number of termination notices received by the Residential Tenancies Board in the first half of the year rose by 58%, compared with the latter half of 2021.

www.rte.ie

Sinn Fein's answer is to ban evictions.

In fairness to Eoin O'Broin he used to work for Focus Ireland and his view on the topic is a reflection of the extremist ideology common with those who go from college straight into the homelessness industry. They don't even have to take the Che Guevara posters off their bedroom walls.

Fear of a Shinner government is one of the main factors driving landlords out of the market.

 

[PebbleBeach2020]

Fear of a Shinner government is one of the main factors driving landlords out of the market.

You can chalk that one down auld stock

 

[Sarenco]

Evidencing an intention to sell is not a ground for legally terminating an assured tenancy (broadly the equivalent of our Part IV tenancies) in the UK.

I'm surprised that Sinn Fein aren't pushing for the removal of this ground for terminating a tenancy to bring us in line with the position in the North.

Re-introducing a moratorium on evictions would obviously be completely bonkers - why would any tenant continue to pay their rent?

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

I'm surprised that Sinn Fein aren't pushing for the removal of this ground for terminating a tenancy to bring us in line with the position in the North.

It's a reasonable assumption that AG's advice is that this is not constitutional. I've lost count of the amendments to the RTA since 2015 (four or five) and my feeling is that it would have been introduced it could have.

The Supreme Court struck down two pieces of rent control legislation in the early 1980s as it felt the Oireachtas was interfering with property rights without adequate justification.

 

[Sarenco]

It's a reasonable assumption that AG's advice is that this is not constitutional.

I'm familiar with the caselaw and I don't agree that removing this ground for terminating a tenancy would offend against any constitutional principle or precedent.

The Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Bill 1981 was found to be unconstitutional on the grounds that it -

"... applied only to some houses and dwellings and not to others; that the basis for the selection is not related to the needs of the tenants, to the financial or economic resources of the landlords, or to any established social necessity; and that, since the legislation is now not limited in duration, it is not associated with any particular temporary or emergency situation."

None of those arguments would be relevant to a legislative amendment removing an intention to sell as a ground for terminating a tenancy.

 

[lff12]

The landlord exodus appears to be accelerating.

Rise in number of termination notices received by RTB

The number of termination notices received by the Residential Tenancies Board in the first half of the year rose by 58%, compared with the latter half of 2021.

www.rte.ie

Sinn Fein's answer is to ban evictions.

There was 22,000 fewer rentals from, I think 2016 (there was about 497k rentals) and its been running around 5k reduction per annum since. That's around 1-2% of overall tenancies. Probably not as dramatic as it seems, but the bigger issue that almost no new landlords are entering the market. While there is evidence of vibrant cash buyer activity in the residential market, BTL mortgages make up fewer than 2% of total mortgage draw downs.
Just because we have data in previous years doesn't mean that there was a perpetual train exiting the rental market as long as renting houses was a thing. What we haven't measured is new landlords entering the market and who they are. The problem isn't only the exist of existing landlords, but the lack of incoming new landlords provisioning new rentals.

Successive Governments have made changes every 3 and 4 months to rules and regulations for landlords surrounding rental accommodation without addressing the small % of tenants who create issues.
There is competition among the "lefties" to make it more difficult and restrictive for landlords to remain in the market.
It is no wonder that small and medium size landlords are leaving the market.
It is next to impossible for a landlord to keep up with all the pro-tenant regulations mainly designed to protect poor-quality tenants. These types of regulations often have a negative impact on good tenants.

This is correct. Rules change often several times a year with breathtaking pace. And are not updated in line with better thoughts and experience. For example, the insistence of having a "means of drying clothes" has encouraged provisioning of tumble dryers and washer dryers outdoor drying would be climate friendly.

In fairness to Eoin O'Broin he used to work for Focus Ireland and his view on the topic is a reflection of the extremist ideology common with those who go from college straight into the homelessness industry. They don't even have to take the Che Guevara posters off their bedroom walls.

Fear of a Shinner government is one of the main factors driving landlords out of the market.

I suspect the fear isn't so much OF a Shinner government as the unpredictability as to how they might behave in power.
That said - take a look up north - its hardly a shining example of a more fair rental market, they have net emigration, lower population growth and less immigration/returning emigrants so it hasn't got the demographic issues the Republic also has stoking the problem.
Housing is a "system" - making changes in one part of the system can have unintended consequences for others in different parts of the system.

 

[Mocame]

It's a reasonable assumption that AG's advice is that this is not constitutional. I've lost count of the amendments to the RTA since 2015 (four or five) and my feeling is that it would have been introduced it could have.

The Supreme Court struck down two pieces of rent control legislation in the early 1980s as it felt the Oireachtas was interfering with property rights without adequate justification.

Will this remain the case after the constitutional amendment on the right to housing is passed?

 

[Leo]

Will this remain the case after the constitutional amendment on the right to housing is passed?

There was no proposal to amend the constitution to weaken the rights of private property owners.

 

[Groucho]

There was no proposal to amend the constitution to weaken the rights of private property owners.

Nonetheless, if such a referendum was successful it seems likely to result in a situation where the law of unintended consequences will almost certainly apply. And the likely losers will be property owners.

 

[The Horseman]

There was no proposal to amend the constitution to weaken the rights of private property owners.

This will open a huge can of worms. I am a landlord who is an individual not a company (seperate legal entity in Irish law). Are my property rights (on my rental property) as a individual not the same as on my home?